Discussion of the ''DCP / plagiarism'' thread

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

*deleted* I posted my Nibley hate on the wrong thread.

- Doc

[_Lemmie]

What would you like to see as s result of this documentary.

....I mean, you might as well ask me what I think should be done to an Officer who was caught plagiarizing while attending West Point. I think he should suffer the consequences of his dishonesty and lack of integrity....

- Doc

excellent point.

[_Lemmie]

No, he did not send me here. And frankly, I have had a lot of things going on in my own life. I haven’t checked out this site day in and day out. Excuse me for not responding sooner to a thread or topic that you started. Yes, others have mentioned the plagiarism issue. When I have spoken with Dan about these incidents in the past, he basically told me the same things that he has publicly stated and I accepted him at his word. But YOU initiated THIS thread, and it appears to me that you are determined to bring things to a head. The only point I am trying to make in my response is that you aren’t just playing some kind of game. These are real people and real livelihoods that you are f***ing around with.

Maybe I’m overly sensitive about this because I lost a job due to a layoff and was out of a job for 7 months. I was so depressed I was suicidal. All I’m saying is that when you start accusing people of things in a public forum, it is serious and there are serious consequences that can occur as a result.

Jesse,

Seems to me that DCP is the one playing the game here. He has publicly acknowledged the accusations of plagiarism, and has even offered a mea culpa or two. However, it just seems that he can't help himself.

His name dropping, his datelines from the various places he travels, his flimsy excuses and insincere apologies regarding his behavior, and the overall personna he has created for himself through his writing, have the hallmarks of an inveterate narcissist.

The fact that he seems unable to internalize the fact that he is seen as a plagiarist by other qualified academics and authors just underscores this personna and adds to his predicament.

Those of us who do make their living, or in my case have made their living, from academic work and the peer reviewed publication of said work, have an obligation to see that the standards of that aspect of the profession are maintained and upheld.

There is more than enough unsubstantiated, unreliable and pilfered content in print and on the internet without someone who claims himself to be an academic constantly violating the rules, blurring the lines, and making flimsy excuses for doing so.

There is a lot more that could be said in support of Lemmie's position on this issue. However, since caution is said to be the better part of valor, I will stop here.

I appreciate what you have said here. It couldn't be laid out more clearly.

[_Lemmie]

When I have spoken with Dan about these incidents in the past, he basically told me the same things that he has publicly stated and I accepted him at his word.

Even after reading the documentation of multiple incidents?

But YOU initiated THIS thread, and it appears to me that you are determined to bring things to a head. The only point I am trying to make in my response is that you aren’t just playing some kind of game. These are real people and real livelihoods that you are f***ing around with.

Re: your last two sentences, I would imagine that it would be more appropriate to direct those sentiments to the plagiarizer, not to the people noting his plagiarism.

[_Jesse Pinkman]

When I have spoken with Dan about these incidents in the past, he basically told me the same things that he has publicly stated and I accepted him at his word.

Even after reading the documentation of multiple incidents?

But YOU initiated THIS thread, and it appears to me that you are determined to bring things to a head. The only point I am trying to make in my response is that you aren’t just playing some kind of game. These are real people and real livelihoods that you are f***ing around with.

Re: your last two sentences, I would imagine that it would be more appropriate to direct those sentiments to the plagiarizer, not to the people noting his plagiarism.

Oh don’t think that I haven’t. But, I also think that you are in denial about the part that you are playing here as well. I’m not saying that you might not be justified. But what I am saying is that if you do choose to report this to BYU, you are starting an investigation that could end a man’s career. Maybe you feel that is justified. From what you and other folks have said here, it is pretty obvious that you do. And look, I’m not trying to make excuses for Dan. If he has really intentionally done this, then he should be called on it. I’m just not sure that is the case. I haven’t read everything yet.

I can tell you that I do know what it is like to lose a professorship due to a grant reduction and having to start your career over at 53. It’s not easy. And I just hate to see anyone I care about go through something like that.

[Guest]

Oh don’t think that I haven’t. But, I also think that you are in denial about the part that you are playing here as well. I’m not saying that you might not be justified. But what I am saying is that if you do choose to report this to BYU, you are starting an investigation that could end a man’s career. Maybe you feel that is justified. From what you and other folks have said here, it is pretty obvious that you do. And look, I’m not trying to make excuses for Dan. If he has really intentionally done this, then he should be called on it. I’m just not sure that is the case. I haven’t read everything yet.

I can tell you that I do know what it is like to lose a professorship due to a grant reduction and having to start your career over at 53. It’s not easy. And I just hate to see anyone I care about go through something like that.

Jesse, I know you and Dr. Peterson go back some ways and that you regard him as a friend so this is especially charged for you. I also understand that the "Scratch-esque" trolling of old makes this subject especially sensitive. I also hope you've seen that I have tried to be pretty neutral in my reading of DCP's actions, I've even been able to peacefully post on his blog for years now.

With that preface out of the way, to avoid some of the underlying tension let's try to separate this from DCP to avoid it for the sake of a thought exercise:

• Do you believe that a university should investigate claims of plagiarism into students and teachers?
• Do you believe a university would punish a student or teacher if no plagiarism is found?
• Do you believe a university should punish a student or teacher if they were found unequivocally guilty of plagiarism (for extra credit, what does that punishment look like)?

If you answer "yes, no, yes" like I suspect you will then I fail to see where your objections are coming from other than just wanting to support Peterson. Either Lemmie and others have a case or they don't. You believe they don't (although you are open to have your mind changed) so that should lead us to point 2 of the hypothetical. Should the university find nothing wrong than the accused would be vindicated and withstanding criticism typically makes us stronger, not weaker. At this point the lines are drawn, I say let the chips fall where they may. I trust that truth prevails in the end, whatever side that is on.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Oh don’t think that I haven’t.

So, he ignored your observations. Ok.

But, I also think that you are in denial about the part that you are playing here as well.

All she's doing is pointing out intolerable plagiarism.

I’m not saying that you might not be justified.

Of course she's justified to point out intolerable plagiarism. ???

But what I am saying is that if you do choose to report this to BYU, you are starting an investigation that could end a man’s career.

Why are you putting the outcome of dishonest and unethical behavior onto her? Also, there have been plenty of other people pointing this out for years. Why are you honing in on Lemmie?

Maybe you feel that is justified. From what you and other folks have said here, it is pretty obvious that you do. And look, I’m not trying to make excuses for Dan.

Then what, exactly, are you doing? The only conclusion I'm left with is you're comfortable with a professor being a plagiarist, an institution abetting it, and shaming anyone who might think it's wrong on both fronts.

If he has really intentionally done this, then he should be called on it. I’m just not sure that is the case. I haven’t read everything yet.

You literally have this thread. You can literally run any number of his articles, publications, books, whatever through a plagiarizer checker. This board has documented his plagiarism beyond a shadow of a doubt. I think you're being a bit unethical yourself by casting doubt on the clear, documented, unassailable evidence of Mr. Peterson's plagiarism.

I can tell you that I do know what it is like to lose a professorship due to a grant reduction and having to start your career over at 53. It’s not easy. And I just hate to see anyone I care about go through something like that.

Your situation and his are completely different. As cool as you are, if it were pointed out were you a plagiarizer I'd want you outed, too.

Also, how many students has Mr. Peterson castigated, warned, punished, and whatever else over the years for plagiarism? The fact that he's gotten away with it is a HUGE offense not only to the university, but to any students over whom he had to enforce this particular code of conduct.

- Doc

[_moksha]

Is 2018 Dr. Peterson's last year before emeritus status, or does employment at BYU extend beyond age 65?

[_Jesse Pinkman]

My responding comments are in this color.

Oh don’t think that I haven’t.

So, he ignored your observations. Ok.

But, I also think that you are in denial about the part that you are playing here as well.

All she's doing is pointing out intolerable plagiarism.

I’m not saying that you might not be justified.

Of course she's justified to point out intolerable plagiarism. ???

But what I am saying is that if you do choose to report this to BYU, you are starting an investigation that could end a man’s career.

Why are you putting the outcome of dishonest and unethical behavior onto her? Also, there have been plenty of other people pointing this out for years. Why are you honing in on Lemmie?

I'm not putting the OUTCOME onto her. I'm asking her, and anyone else for that matter, who is really serious about reporting an allegation of something that could truly ruin a man's career to make sure that they can really understand the wheels that such an investigation will set into motion, and what that could truly mean for him. I want to remind everyone that when you start talking about this kind of stuff, and contemplating actions, these aren't parlor games that are being played. I think that when people type behind a screen, they often forget that there are real people behind the keyboard, and that when you set wheels like this in motion, you aren't just affecting some random character. These are real people you're messing with. As another poster on here mentioned, that is what consistently bugged me about some of Scratch's posts. He didn't seem to have any concern or compassion for who he was affecting in real life.

The only reason I am "honing in" on Lemmie is because she is the one who started this thread. My comments can be taken for what they're worth by anyone who feels the same way.

Maybe you feel that is justified. From what you and other folks have said here, it is pretty obvious that you do. And look, I’m not trying to make excuses for Dan.

Then what, exactly, are you doing? The only conclusion I'm left with is you're comfortable with a professor being a plagiarist, an institution abetting it, and shaming anyone who might think it's wrong on both fronts.

No, that is not the correct conclusion. If you feel that is where I'm going with this, then I apologize for not being more clear in my communication. I'm not sure what more I can say, but I hope that my comments here can at least give you more insight on where I'm coming from.

If he has really intentionally done this, then he should be called on it. I’m just not sure that is the case. I haven’t read everything yet.

You literally have this thread. You can literally run any number of his articles, publications, books, whatever through a plagiarizer checker. This board has documented his plagiarism beyond a shadow of a doubt. I think you're being a bit unethical yourself by casting doubt on the clear, documented, unassailable evidence of Mr. Peterson's plagiarism.

I do not see the documentation on this thread as conclusive as you do. As far as running Dan's articles through some kind of checker, I honestly don't have the time or the inclination to do so. I'm starting a new business, and have plenty other real life concerns to deal with at the moment. The reason I'm saying something here is that my personal interactions have been different from a lot of others here, and I have a hard time believing that he would INTENTIONALLY plagiarize material. I think that what was done was unintentional. That doesn't make it right, but if, as I suspect, it is an unintentional act, I don't think he should be fired for it.

I can tell you that I do know what it is like to lose a professorship due to a grant reduction and having to start your career over at 53. It’s not easy. And I just hate to see anyone I care about go through something like that.

Your situation and his are completely different. As cool as you are, if it were pointed out were you a plagiarizer I'd want you outed, too.

Also, how many students has Mr. Peterson castigated, warned, punished, and whatever else over the years for plagiarism? The fact that he's gotten away with it is a HUGE offense not only to the university, but to any students over whom he had to enforce this particular code of conduct.

I'm glad you think I'm cool. LOL And if I intentionally plagiarized material, I would deserve to be outted. As far as how many students he encountered who were guilty of plagiarism, I have no idea, nor am I privy to the action he took.

[Guest]

I am stunned, Jesse Pinkman, that you are concerned enough about the REPORTING of plagiarism to write this many lengthy posts about it, while at the same time saying you don't have the time or inclination to determine for yourself whether the PLAGIARISM actually occurred. You just trust that it didn't.

I really don't understand. If he didn't plagiarize, then the reports wouldn't ruin his career. If making the reports really would end his career it would be because they were true. Your arguments sound to me like you are advocating that people should just trust him when he says he didn't plagiarize, and that all will be fine if people just stop talking about the plagiarism. And although you say you are not shifting the burden to those noting the plagiarism, your continued posts warning those reporting the plagiarism that they have an obligation to realize what a serious situation this is are doing exactly that.

I have fully documented every instance of plagiarism I have discussed. If it happened once or twice I could see that it might have been unintentional, but I personally have documented 8 or 9 cases of blatant intellectual theft, just in the last few months. Your continued insistence that I realize how serious these accusations are is misdirected, if you need to keep talking about the seriousness of plagiarism, then you really should do it with the one who is plagiarizing.