Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

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_Xenophon
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:If you take more money from 'here' and give it to people doing things over 'there' they'll be less likely to commit crime because *reasons*.

- Doc

Maybe I'm dense Cam (it has been known to happen) but where has anyone in this thread suggested what you have written above?
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _EAllusion »

Maxine Waters wrote:
As for your incorrect belief that the fine system actually advantages poors and minorities, please see the offered links.


If you take away the threat of jail time for unpaid fines, what incentive does someone with bad credit have to pay the fine? They're not even scared of the fines because they know they'll never have to pay them. When you have nothing to lose you can get away with a lot more than someone who has a good job or a family farm that a judge can take in court.

This seems to presume that Memphis is already enforced like Finland when it isn't.

Regarding the proposal to prorate fines, I suggested diversion from fines in the form of compelled community service if a person has zero capacity to pay. In the case of repeat reckless driving violations, I argued for loss of driving privileges and criminal penalties for ignoring that. I simply argued that capacity to pay for fines should be decoupled from whether there are harsh criminal penalties for behavior. The problem with repeat driving offenses is the pattern of reckless behavior, not how easily a person can afford to pay the fines for it. If someone parks illicitly in a handicapped spot, you can still tow their car to enforce the zone. Avoiding debtors prisons doesn't leave you with no response to behavior.

In the case of many other offenses, either those offenses should not incur a fine, for planting a vegetable garden as a front lawn for instance, or ruined credit as a result of lack of payment is penalty enough. As we recognize in every other facet of life, debtors prisons are barbaric.

Littering should not result in a jail sentence. And if you think it should then make the case directly to attach that penalty to it.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Xenophon wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:If you take more money from 'here' and give it to people doing things over 'there' they'll be less likely to commit crime because *reasons*.

- Doc

Maybe I'm dense Cam (it has been known to happen) but where has anyone in this thread suggested what you have written above?


I'm trying to figure out a solution since there's a "war" on the poor and on minorities. Obviously, the poor and minorities can't afford to break the law, but when they do break the law they're adversely affected by it because they don't have the money to give to the government. That's war, by the way. Being poor. And being a minority. Enemies of the state!

So. The pecuniary effects of breaking the law don't seem to be a deterrent. With that, we should figure out a way to make breaking the law less 'warlike' on the poor and on minorities. I see a few solutions at hand:

1) Let them break the law with impunity because the poor and minorities, historically, have been oppressed by wealthy white men and this is a way of taking power back. The poor can break the law with impunity and as a result wealthy white men will now feel the fear the poor and minorities have felt for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Maybe wealthy white men will shift some of their money from 'here' to over 'there' to make amends. Think of it as open season on Whitey until they come to heal.

2) Everyone pays a pro-rated fine for breaking the law. This essentially 'levels' the playing field, but then you run into problems of representation. In a democracy we're equal under the law, and granting someone more equality than others is problematic. For example, if a wealthy person has to shift more of his money from 'here' to over 'there' for a speeding ticket, then you're going to have to explain why his vote isn't at least worth 2/5 more during the election cycle since he's paying more to fund the government in which everyone has an equal vote. In other words, he's being targeted specifically for his wealth which seems... I dunno.. problematic. Anyway. That's a solution. Take more of the wealthy person's money because it's proportionately fair. Also, we should take more of their time to make up for the injustices and inequalities the system has levied over the years on the poor and minorities so Whitey is incentivized to be more lenient with policing and sentencing. I like the way you think!

3) We should pay reparations to all the aggrieved who aren't wealthy white males. And by wealthy white males I really just mean all men who have, say, a genetic makeup of more than 50% that traces back to Europe. “F” the Irish, by the way. They get stuck with the bill, too. That way in the future, after we get done taking all the money from 'here' and shifting it to everyone over 'there' and everyone feels happy and all grievances are settled we can make sure that a utopian society is established where no one will break the law because everyone is treated perfectly equal according to our new progressive overlords.

4) We should just seize the means of production and ensure that all jobs and positions are filled with people who perfectly represent historical grievances so we can make it all better. We should also seize the means of reproduction because Whitey is evil and once everyone is caramel and have no identifiable gender the human race will be at peace with one another, Gaia, and fly to the stars spreading economic and social Marxism to all life in the universe. Think Star Trek, but no asshole white people.

There you go! Shift assets, seize the economy, breed out bad genes.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _EAllusion »

Ajax - The poor, especially this that look like "inner city Memphis," must pay exorbitant fines and fees under threat of jail otherwise they won't follow civil rules.

Also Ajax - It's no big deal if the wealthy are charged an inconsequential pittance for violating civil rules. They can be trusted.

Gee, hard to read between the lines there.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _EAllusion »

The most radical proposal actually being discussed in this thread - Scandinavian style prorating of fines - was first introduced as a good model to follow by the Marxist racial justice warrior DocCam.
_Xenophon
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Xenophon »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Xenophon wrote:Maybe I'm dense Cam (it has been known to happen) but where has anyone in this thread suggested what you have written above?

There you go! Shift assets, seize the economy, breed out bad genes.

- Doc


So you are suggesting this, right now. Got it. Nothing that anyone else has said has even remotely resembled what your bullet points above suggest.

They are all ridiculous but Point 2 seems an especially odd suggestion in that there is already a progressive tax system but you don't seem to be clamoring for the rich to have more voting power because of their tax burden. by the way it is a pretty easy argument that the wealthy are over represented by politicians given their ability to donate more, lobby, control media, etc (not saying this is wrong per-se just suggesting that even if his vote isn't 2/5ths more powerful doesn't mean he doesn't have more influence).

The part that seems most strange about your response is the relatively low impact nature of the crimes being suggested. Oddly I suspect that you probably agree that things like and over-weeded lawn or a garden as a lawn (or chickens in a non-zoned area) are probably ridiculous crimes that shouldn't be illegal in the first place. It is not like EA and others have suggested that rapists and murderers should spend less time in jail because of their income just that when it comes to petty crimes it should be accounted for. Also I suspect that you agree that debtors prison is ridiculous cruel and doesn't solve the problem at all. So I'm really uncertain what your beef here is. For a guy that I believe claimed he wanted Bernie over Clinton your positions seem really inconsistent.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

X,

Well. Be for something rather than against something. I don't see you offering up any solutions. The best EA has got is some of the crimes shouldn't be crimes (whatever that means since he can't be bothered to list out non-crime crimes), and that rich people should pay more in fines.

That still doesn't solve the problem of poor people and minorities, apparently, jaywalking more, or driving on an expired license or, I dunno, whatever the “F” they're getting cited over.

When pressed for solutions all I'm seeing is 'it's too complicated' or stop making an offense a punishable offense. Feel free to provide a practical working solution that maintains a civil society.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Ceeboo »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: Feel free to provide a practical working solution that maintains a civil society.

- Doc


I got one!

We should consider justice as a blindfolded lady holding a scale (Oh wait, we already have that here in this great country)

We should stop taking the blindfold off of that lady and adding qualifying words to the word justice. It doesn't need one.
Adding the word "social" to justice diminishes, dilutes and warps justice (at best - and at worst, well......)
Social justice is unjust. Period.

Peace,
Ceeboo
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _EAllusion »

I suspect Bernie Sanders, notorious bane of socialists, wouldn't exactly characterize supporting prorating civil fines based on ability to pay as a communist plot to tear down the social order through a proxy race war. But then again, neither would have DocCam less than a day ago. Way back then, he brought up the idea and said he liked it.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on the Poor/Minorities continues

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:I suspect Bernie Sanders, notorious bane of socialists, wouldn't exactly characterize supporting prorating civil fines based on ability to pay as a communist plot to tear down the social order through a proxy race war. But then again, neither would have DocCam less than a day ago. Way back then, he brought up the idea and said he liked it.


Hit dog hollers! Poor EA. Can't form an original thought if his life depended on it. Still waitin' on those solutions, brother.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
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