Aziz Ansari is innocent
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
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Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
DoubtingThomas wrote:EAllusion wrote:There is no analogy to "dressing sexy" with that. I'm saying that Aziz behaved inappropriately as a response to people, you by proxy for example, who wish to downplay that for whatever reason.
Even according to feminist @$$ kissing CNN, "For example: Sexual assault and rape are never the victim's fault. But we cannot indiscriminately start destroying careers over consensual sexual activity, which based on her account is what this case appears to be. When we do that, we trivialize the brave victims who are coming forward about actual sex crimes...We should think long and hard before asking men to see inside our hearts and minds to divine our true feelings. To count on such omniscience would only pave the way for greater ambiguity and subjectivity in our sexual relations.""
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/opinions/ ... index.html
I know you don't see it, but you come across as a misogynist man-o-sphere type with the way you choose to phrase things. Why the "even this feminist ass-kisser says" preludes? Do you not notice that there is a general reaction in not describing this as assault? You're jousting with windmills.
The comment you link does exactly what I complain about it in acting as though Ansari has to be some arcane mind-reader to know what Grace was communicating, which for anyone who is a a sexually active adult or understands what it is like to be one should read as disingenuous. He knew that she didn't want to have sex with him at that time and he kept pushing and pushing. It's not nonconsensual, but we can recognize it for being inappropriately manipulative. Can she be more clear? Yeah. Is understanding what she wanted akin to an act of divination? Hell no. That's ridiculous. We don't need to pretend we're aliens who've never met humans before here. He was trying to wear her down while she was giving all sorts of clear signals that she was uncomfortable with it. That makes him a jerk rather than a rapist, but we can lament that he was a jerk.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
According to CNN article, "For example: Sexual assault and rape are never the victim's fault. But we cannot indiscriminately start destroying careers over consensual sexual activity, which based on her account is what this case appears to be. When we do that, we trivialize the brave victims who are coming forward about actual sex crimes...We should think long and hard before asking men to see inside our hearts and minds to divine our true feelings. To count on such omniscience would only pave the way for greater ambiguity and subjectivity in our sexual relations.... If a woman wants a man, she should tell him. If she wants to be "conquered," tell him. Don't make him guess or he may guess wrong with the next woman. When "no" means "yes," "yes" can mean "no." Therein lies danger for both parties.""
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/opinions/ ... index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/opinions/ ... index.html
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
EAllusion wrote: He knew that she didn't want to have sex with him at that time and he kept pushing and pushing. It's not nonconsensual.
EAllusion. Life is much more complicated than that and the possibilities are endless.
1. He really didn't know
2. He was trying to convince her
3. He thought she was playing hard to get
And EAllusion, you are contradicting yourself. If it was non-consensual then it means it was a sexual assault. Which is it? Was it sexual assault yes or no?
As for the "He knew" please try to understand that not everyone has the same skills as you EAlussion. I agree with Whoopi Goldberg Scolds when she said, "Non-Verbal Cues are not enough".
EAllusion, read about the human mind, in many cases it sees what it wants to see when things aren't completely clear. Why do you think the LDS church exists? We humans tend to find patterns when we want to find them, so that is the reason why I think "
As for a man and a woman drinking together, it can get very complicated if the woman is not being clear enough. EAllussion. The world is not as simple, there are 300 million Americans and some are going to misunderstand ambitious "non-verbal cues"
And why make men take all responsibility?
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
What is described is not something that requires guessing and if you are wondering if no really means yes, then you are doing it wrong and that same excuse can be used for actual rapists. If a person repeatedly communicates to you that they are uncomfortable, you should respect that. You shouldn't go for it, on a first date no less, on the off chance that they're into that. This is not a case where Ansari as forced to read tea-leaves. It's clear as day he was trying to wear her down. This was not in a playful way, but in an overly aggressive, manipulative way.
I'll quote someone who I was discussing this with recently:
I'll quote someone who I was discussing this with recently:
“I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him."
He didn't "chill." He kept escalating the sexual activity.
“He probably moved my hand to his dick five to seven times,” she said. “He really kept doing it after I moved it away.”
He's 34. Women who want to [expletive] you undo your pants, they don't move their hand away from your dick. He knew--or let's any reasonable man would know--that she didn't want to [expletive] him at that moment. He wanted to wear her down to the point that she was willing to [expletive] him so he could get his nut while telling himself that she was into it.
“It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a damned game.”
Women who want to [expletive] you don't move away from you.
"But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’”
I mean, [expletive]. That's him taking what is essentially an explicit "no" and trying to turn to into it a yes.
And yes, she could have said "no" and left whenever she wanted. But she was also 22 and met someone that she probably admired. She must have been thrilled about having a date with a smart, funny, rich, famous guy. She might have even been a fan or at least familiar with his work. She probably wanted it to work. She's got to be sitting there thinking, "no, I want him to like me, I want him to [expletive] me because he likes and values me, I don't want this right now, this way" and hoping she could steer it back on course. The power dynamic is completely asymmetric and he was taking advantage of that because he was being a creep and an [expletive].
And even if it wasn't, the fundamental point is this--a woman should not have to be prepared to withstand a sexual siege on a date with a man she likes. She shouldn't be put in a position of being torn between trying to salvage the situation (by being polite and giving "soft" negatives) and dealing with advances she obviously doesn't want. I can read this story and tell what's going on--there's no way Ansari wouldn't also know that he was pushing her somewhere she didn't really want to go.
And after gathering herself in the bathroom, that's exactly the needle she tried to thread:
Grace says she spent around five minutes in the bathroom, collecting herself in the mirror and splashing herself with water. Then she went back to Ansari. He asked her if she was okay. “I said I don’t want to feel forced because then I’ll hate you, and I’d rather not hate you,” she said.
And what happened?
“He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”
This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.
Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”
He responded to her telling him that she didn't want to feel forced by telling her to suck his [expletive] dick.
She's now told him "next time" and "I don't want to feel forced." Any reasonable person--much less a successful celebrity with his pick of women who's written a [expletive] book on dating--ought to know that this woman is not comfortable with [expletive] him.
I'll tell you what he did know--he knew she liked him a lot and he knew that she felt intense pressure not to disappoint him.
She certainly should have asserted herself more explicitly and ended the situation. I'm sure she wishes she did. But, in that situation, he should not have tried to take advantage of her vulnerability. Giving Ansari a pass for anything he did because she didn't leave is tantamount to victim-blaming. It's the sort of legalistic [expletive] that guys use to justify the pressuring they've used to get their way sexually.
One more:
“After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”
They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”
While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants.
She did say no. Look how far it got her.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
DoubtingThomas wrote:1. He really didn't know
He's not autistic. It's not subtle.
2. He was trying to convince her
Yep. That appears to be what was happening. He took it too far and was a jerk. And not in a, "Didn't split the check" kind of way but in a way that is pretty bad. It's hard to say exactly how bad because how people react to these things varies so much, but it's really the sort of behavior we should feel no reluctance to condemn. And yes, it is especially disappointing that it's Ansari because his public persona is someone who is thoughtful, highly intelligent, and an author of a good book on dating. It's like he's actually like one of his characters.
3. He thought she was playing hard to get
You don't push people as hard as he did on the chance that they might want that. This reminds me of the Louis C.K. bit where he jokes about a woman who wanted him to essentially rape her by pushing past her physical resistence. Yeah, no one's gonna do that on the chance that you're into that kind of thing. The same principle applies here.
And EAllusion, you are contradicting yourself. If it was non-consensual then it means it was a sexual assault. Which is it? Was it sexual assault yes or no?
I said it wasn't nonconsensual.
As for the "He knew" please try to understand that not everyone has the same skills as you EAlussion.
I think this goes back to your history on this board of really struggling to understand adult sexual relationships due to your experience being raised strictly within the LDS faith. These aren't high-level skills. This is basic awareness of people.
I agree with Whoopi Goldberg Scolds when she said, "Non-Verbal Cues are not enough".
Whoopi Goldberg is a serial rape apologist; Grace didn't just give non-verbal cues, and what she was doing according to the account we have was plenty to understand her feelings. While people should feel comfortable being explicit about what they want, when they are able to articulate things explicitly, we should also understand that we constantly have interactions where we understand what each other wants from contextual behavior. You are way overthinking it if you can't tell a woman repeatedly pulling away from you, trying to push sex off to a second date, talking about not wanting to feel forced, etc. might not be into it right now.
EAllusion, read about the human mind,
I have a degree in psychology.
No one said that.And why make men take all responsibility?
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
EAllusion wrote: if you are wondering if no really means yes, then you are doing it wrong and that same excuse can be used for actual rapists.
EAllusion you are grossly misunderstanding Lucia Brawley (CNN article author), a rape survivor herself. For Lucia women shouldn't play guess games. Women playing guess games like non-verbal cues only hurt other women.
EAllusion wrote:Yep. That appears to be what was happening. He took it too far and was a jerk.
But what I still don't understand is how is it relevant to false sexual assault accusations? It should be irrelevant for our condemnation of false sexual assault accusations.
EAllusion wrote:
He knew that she didn't want to have sex with him at that time
Of course he "knew" from her perspective, but Aziz said, ""It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned"
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:48 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
EAllusion wrote:someone who I was discussing this with recently:
Yes I will read the long post tomorrow.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
EAllusion wrote:Do you not notice that there is a general reaction in not describing this as assault? You're jousting with windmills. .
One more thing before leaving. It is irrelevant!
It doesn't matter if most people don't describe it as sexual assault (thank goodness). But the accusation of sexual assault is still there! and the accuser will suffer no consequence.
A false accusation was made so we should all be outraged.
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Re: Aziz Ansari is innocent
"As a survivor of sexual assault myself, I understand palpably the delicacy of sexual dynamics. But our culture will never evolve unless we all accept our responsibility for making changes that increase accountability and conscious decision-making on all sides."
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/opinions/ ... index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/opinions/ ... index.html