Aziz Ansari is innocent

[_Res Ipsa]

We all have bias, but I am suggesting his is especially biased, on this subject, based on posts here and many other threads I have seen him on. Disliking a poster a lot can have a impact on what opinions they form.

Well, much like MG being cool with God calling pedophiles I find EAllusion being cool with rape fantasies utterly bizarre and a reflection of his character.

I'm sorry, but fantasizing about raping others or being raped is bizarre at best and utterly depraved and psychotic at worst. What's next? Fantasizing about sodomizing children is peachy? Humping dogs is easy peasy as long as it stays in your dome?

Holy ____ sometimes this board surprises me.

- Doc

Just for yuks, I hit the edumacational Google. This literature survey is consistent with what EA said about rape fantasies. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... ccess=true

[_DoubtingThomas]

I'm sorry, but fantasizing about raping others or being raped is bizarre at best and utterly depraved and psychotic at worst.

Dude "depraved" and "psychotic" don't exists in nature. We humans are just chemicals with no free will being controlled by our environment and genes.

We humans imagine crazy s*** all the time, recently a 20 year old girl (Rachael Harris) fantasized of being f*** by her dog. Look it up.

But anyways, what Eullusion meant is that it is okay to fantasize just as long as you don't do it. We are humans, not sons of god.

[_EAllusion]

Rape fantasies are common for women. In the metaanalysis linked by Res Ipsa, between 31 and 57% say they have them and between 9 and 17% say they are their most frequent or favorite fantasy experience. That's incompatible the the notion that they are utterly bizarre. Of course, you can argue those women are all "utterly depraved and psychotic," but in doing so you'd implicate around half of adult women in the country. No argument is supplied for why it's so bad to have fantasies about unwilling sex outside of a crudely drawn slippery slope, so there's nothing to reply to there. All we can do is note that Doc Cam has some, if not bizarre, then definitely puritanical ideas about sex and maybe doesn't understand the sexual lives of women very well.

It is indeed a reflection of my character that I do not morally condemn women for sexually fantasizing about rape scenarios and it is indeed a reflection of DocCam's character that he does so.

[_EAllusion]

The reason that I said I don't think she did that, is because she didn't mention it in her account...

That doesn't follow at all. Maybe she, or the writer editing and telling her story, didn't find that to be a pertinent set of facts to discuss. That probably would be the right journalistic choice. It wouldn't really fit within the flow of the piece. We don't know how many people she bounced her experience off and you cannot infer that she didn't from silence. The only person we can have any kind of confidence she didn't discuss that subject with is Aziz, because we can see the exchange they had the following day.

[_EAllusion]

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224490701808191?scroll=top&needAccess=true

I read the paper. You can access it here:

http://cynlibsoc.com/clsology/pdf/The-N ... ntents.pdf

Trigger warning: The authors use rape fantasy and "forced sex" fantasy interchangeably.

[_cafe crema]

I figured this thread could use at least one woman's perspective. When I wrote this:

We're living in a world where a man acts like an overbearing jerk and treats a woman like what she portrayed. Then the woman gives her account anonymously in order to embarrass him when what she actually does is embarrass herself in the process.

That's exactly what happened. That's all that happened. There's no reason to over-analyze it. There's no reason to lay blame solely at the man's feet. They both played their part in this temporary relationship.

I could tick off a list of where she naïvely went wrong. Then, I'd be accused of victim blaming and shaming because that's how some folks roll around here.

She went wrong from the start. She sent out the signals and he caught them. She set the tone.

It's a damn shame that folks can't tell the straight up truth.

Well from another woman I agree with what you've said here and with what you said here:

She also might have not considered that she was giving him mixed signals. Read the account.

I agree particularly with what you said when I read what "Grace" said here:

“I said something like, ‘Whoa, let’s relax for a sec, let’s chill.’” She says he then resumed kissing her, briefly performed oral sex on her, and asked her to do the same thing to him. She did, but not for long. “It was really quick. Everything was pretty much touched and done within ten minutes of hooking up, except for actual sex.”

From the whole article Aziz appears to be a pushy churlish cad but yet she just goes along with it. She seemed to think she could turn the date around but she ignored his signals just as much as he did hers. These are two people who have completely different ideas of what constitutes a "date" and what the end outcome is supposed to be. Yes there was an imbalance in status, prestige, power, between Aziz and "Grace" but what is never mentioned is the status and prestige "Grace" gains from "dating" person of Aziz's status.

Here at my house we've spent some time "over-analyzing" it because I don't want my daughters to follow suit. I don't want them to cave to sexual pressure because they are star struck. I want them to know themselves, what they want, and what they don't want. And then put that into action. "Grace" was a grown woman living on her own making a living and taking care of herself, making her own decisions, she has years on my kids, but they face the same sorts of pressures in their own world. I don't want my kids to be Aziz or "Grace". And so we talk analyze, critique both persons actions, to understand how both approach things, and how they can better navigate the situations that come up in their lives.

[_honorentheos]

I don't want my kids to be Aziz or "Grace". And so we talk analyze, critique both persons actions, to understand how both approach things, and how they can better navigate the situations that come up in their lives.

Well said.

[_honorentheos]

Listen I read her account start to finish. She was at a party with a date, and by her own words drinking and "tipsy". She got all sorts of starstruck, basically pursued Aziz's attention and she got it. She gave a stranger her phone number. She gave Aziz enough of an idea of what she was about from the get go. He believed her and called her for a date. He took the ball and ran with it. She gave him mixed signals about what she did/didn't want to do that night.

If a guy wants to put his fingers in your mouth, unless he's got a gun to your head, a fist in close proxmity of your face, or has trapped you, no one can make you open your mouth repeatedly and let im put his fingers in it.

Same thing with all the rest of what took place. It was a game of now she does, now she doesn't.

Women show men how they want to be treated. She didn't like that he was a jerk to her. She went public to exact revenge on him and embarrass him for the jerk that he was.

Set aside the question around this being assault and just look at it as an example interaction between two people on their first date.

It seems to me like she gave clear signals that she was interested in Aziz but was not comfortable with the aggressive way he pursued getting sex from her on their first date. She showed this physically as well as stated it verbally. It wasn't mixed signals so much as Aziz was reading from her that despite not being comfortable with jumping on the kitchen counters and bangin', she was still interested in him. Being interested isn't the same as waffling between wanting to have sex and wanting to spend time with a person without taking it to physical intimacy. Aziz negotiated her into giving him what he wanted. I don't think she did anything wrong as far as to describe something she did as being unethical. She made bad decisions regarding extending trust and having poor expectations regarding Aziz being enough of a gentleman to accept her desires but instead got a hard life lesson.

Sorry, but that makes Ansari a dick. I like his comedy but this behavior is absolutely shameful.

Again, setting aside the question of assault, any male who emulates this described behavior is a damned dick, too. It shouldn't be excused. Even if we are given another version of the story that mitigates Aziz's actual participation, this narrative should be considered as an example of what not to do. The examples for where he could have chosen to do right all come down to his actually acting in good faith with concern for the other person based on what he was obviously hearing rather than looking for cracks to get what he wanted when he wanted it. Frankly, the account has all the signs of her being interested in a non-skeezy sexual relationship with him, but he skeezed hard and relentlessly.

I think people are trying to excuse his behavior because they view the woman involved as a "star idiot" or some kind of groupie. That's a screwed up thing to think, too. People get interested in other people for all kinds of equivalent more mundane reasons. Their being very attractive, funny, athletic, popular, whatever...the notion that because being in a relationship with a person is socially elevating may play a role in a person's decision making doesn't justify trying to say that a person who seeks such a relationship is just getting what they deserve if they get hurt.

Maybe I'm the exception here, but I can think of several first dates I went on where I really, REALLY hoped things would work out because of the high esteem I had for my date where it affected my judgement as to how to gracefully acknowledge the night should have ended early. And holding on too long as that date went in a different direction as it became apparent we weren't compatible but I really liked the person (or better said, my ideal of who the person was) so I ignored the obvious. Sometimes being dumb enough to turn that into second or third (terrible) dates that I cringe to think back on. I've sat in the other chair a few times where I was trying to hit the ejector seat on a date with someone who was reading the date experience differently or wanting things to work out in the end when I had checked the "nope" box already. Dating could be fun but it could also really suck as I recall.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Rape fantasies are common for women. In the metaanalysis linked by Res Ipsa, between 31 and 57% say they have them and between 9 and 17% say they are their most frequent or favorite fantasy experience. That's incompatible the the notion that they are utterly bizarre. Of course, you can argue those women are all "utterly depraved and psychotic," but in doing so you'd implicate around half of adult women in the country. No argument is supplied for why it's so bad to have fantasies about unwilling sex outside of a crudely drawn slippery slope, so there's nothing to reply to there. All we can do is note that Doc Cam has some, if not bizarre, then definitely puritanical ideas about sex and maybe doesn't understand the sexual lives of women very well.

It is indeed a reflection of my character that I do not morally condemn women for sexually fantasizing about rape scenarios and it is indeed a reflection of DocCam's character that he does so.

I had to ask my wife if she knew that 57% of women fantasize about rape based off this thread. She asked me why I'm communicating with a psychopath. I explained to her that a study was conducted and linked, she then asked me what mental ward the researcher was polling from.

One will note that EA thinks if you fantasize about rape or raping someone you're enlightened and progressive.

Anyway. EA inadvertently either outed himself as a believer in poorly polled studies, a psychopath, or somehow just proved that 57% of women are depraved lunatics.

Pick your poison. I'm going to go ahead and not believe that 57% of women fantasize about getting raped, and I'll just roll with EA thinking I'm puritanical. I can live with a pro-rape fantasist believing I'm sexually stodgy.

eta: This thread kind of gives, "Grab 'em by the pussy!" a whole new angle. Phew.

- Doc

[_honorentheos]

Rape fantasy is something I don't understand. My first time encountering it as a thing was during a discussion of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead with a young female coworker while in college. I had read it recently and like many a sophomore it had appeal that didn't last past getting more knowledge and experience in life. But at the time I was a fan of the novel's protagonist Howard Roark. I just couldn't understand what Rand was saying when she had him rape the main female character, Dominique Francon, by entering her room and "taking" her without any sign of permission or having even spoken to one another. I was shocked by it and simply could not reconcile the act with the rest of my view of the character. Dominique was portrayed as the ideal woman by Rand, and her reaction to this was not just to passively be taken by Roark, but to love him and give herself to him completely as the main romantic arc in the narrative. The book ends with her literally rising up to meet him in one of his buildings under construction after breaking free of all of the other constraints put on her buy society and her father. The entire thing was completely alien to me and made absolutely no sense at all. So I set it aside.

This coworker was well read and had brought it up for some reason so as we talked about the book's themes and ideas, I brought up my inability to reconcile the rape scene and both protagonist characters' parts when it came to sex in the story. She got quiet, and then said something about the appeal of rape as a fantasy that I probably wouldn't understand. I didn't, and being very TBM at the time wasn't really able to engage in a nuanced discussion about sex that didn't conform to the LDS "sex in marriage = good, all other sex = bad" paradigm, we moved on.

I still don't understand.

(Side note: the chiasmus in the post above was unintentional but I found it funny when I reread it before posting.)