EAllusion wrote:Rape fantasies are common for women. In the metaanalysis linked by Res Ipsa, between 31 and 57% say they have them and between 9 and 17% say they are their most frequent or favorite fantasy experience. That's incompatible the the notion that they are utterly bizarre. Of course, you can argue those women are all "utterly depraved and psychotic," but in doing so you'd implicate around half of adult women in the country. No argument is supplied for why it's so bad to have fantasies about unwilling sex outside of a crudely drawn slippery slope, so there's nothing to reply to there. All we can do is note that Doc Cam has some, if not bizarre, then definitely puritanical ideas about sex and maybe doesn't understand the sexual lives of women very well.
It is indeed a reflection of my character that I do not morally condemn women for sexually fantasizing about rape scenarios and it is indeed a reflection of DocCam's character that he does so.
I had to ask my wife if she knew that 57% of women fantasize about rape based off this thread. She asked me why I'm communicating with a psychopath. I explained to her that a study was conducted and linked, she then asked me what mental ward the researcher was polling from.
One will note that EAllusion thinks if you fantasize about rape or raping someone you're enlightened and progressive.
Anyway. EAllusion inadvertently either outed himself as a believer in poorly polled studies, a psychopath, or somehow just proved that 57% of women are depraved lunatics.
Pick your poison. I'm going to go ahead and not believe that 57% of women fantasize about getting raped, and I'll just roll with EAllusion thinking I'm puritanical. I can live with a pro-rape fantasist believing I'm sexually stodgy.
eta: This thread kind of gives, "Grab 'em by the pussy!" a whole new angle. Phew.
- Doc
So, you’re saying that an informal poll of you and your wife is more reliable than not one, but several, studies? You simply conclude that evidence must simply be discarded because you can’t believe it? That’s just the fallacy of personal incredulity. Facts are facts, whether you find them believable or not.
And what’s with all the strawmen? Nowhere has EA claimed that having rape fantasies means one is enlightened and progressive. You simply made that up. Another thing you made up is describing him as “pro-rape fantasy.” All he’s done is correctly described evidence and pointed out the obvious — it’s silly to describe something like half of women as “depraved lunatics.” That may be “pro reality,” but it ain’t “pro rape fantasy.” Do you really have a need to demonize someone that is so strong that you have to flat out make things up just to have a handy whipping boy? Cuz that’s sure what it looks like from here?
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: I had to ask my wife if she knew that 57% of women fantasize about rape based off this thread. She asked me why I'm communicating with a psychopath. I explained to her that a study was conducted and linked, she then asked me what mental ward the researcher was polling from.
I'm glad you married someone like yourself. The paper that was linked wasn't a single study. It was an analysis of the literature over a 30ish year period. Hence the word "metaanalysis." It looked at the well known phenomenon of large numbers of women having sexual fantasies regarding unwilling sex and theories for why that is.
One will note that EA thinks if you fantasize about rape or raping someone you're enlightened and progressive.
My actual position is that it is not wrong for women to fantasize about forced sex. That doesn't mean doing so makes you enlightened or progressive. And I wouldn't call refraining from describing women who do so "depraved lunatics" enlightened and progressive so much as just not ignorant and judgmental. You're setting a low bar here.
Anyway. EA inadvertently either outed himself as a believer in poorly polled studies, a psychopath, or somehow just proved that 57% of women are depraved lunatics.
Why do you believe the various studies the literature review looked at were poorly pollled?
honorentheos wrote:Rape fantasy is something I don't understand. My first time encountering it as a thing was during a discussion of Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead with a young female coworker while in college. I had read it recently and like many a sophomore it had appeal that didn't last past getting more knowledge and experience in life. But at the time I was a fan of the novel's protagonist Howard Roark. I just couldn't understand what Rand was saying when she had him rape the main female character, Dominique Francon, by entering her room and "taking" her without any sign of permission or having even spoken to one another. I was shocked by it and simply could not reconcile the act with the rest of my view of the character. Dominique was portrayed as the ideal woman by Rand, and her reaction to this was not just to passively be taken by Roark, but to love him and give herself to him completely as the main romantic arc in the narrative. The book ends with her literally rising up to meet him in one of his buildings under construction after breaking free of all of the other constraints put on her buy society and her father. The entire thing was completely alien to me and made absolutely no sense at all. So I set it aside.
This coworker was well read and had brought it up for some reason so as we talked about the book's themes and ideas, I brought up my inability to reconcile the rape scene and both protagonist characters' parts when it came to sex in the story. She got quiet, and then said something about the appeal of rape as a fantasy that I probably wouldn't understand. I didn't, and being very TBM at the time wasn't really able to engage in a nuanced discussion about sex that didn't conform to the LDS "sex in marriage = good, all other sex = bad" paradigm, we moved on.
I still don't understand.
(Side note: the chiasmus in the post above was unintentional but I found it funny when I reread it before posting.)
Rand throwing in a Harlequin rape fantasy in the book was goofy and undermined her characterizations, though. In the context of the book's world, it's happening. It's not a fantasy sequence. It's a popular criticism of Rand as a terrible writer.
EAllusion wrote:Rand throwing in a Harlequin rape fantasy in the book was goofy and undermined her characterizations, though. In the context of the book's world, it's happening. It's not a fantasy sequence. It's a popular criticism of Rand as a terrible writer.
Yeah. But keep in mind that I was young at the time and for whatever reason held the belief that authors tended to be more coherent than is really the case. It still makes no sense at all to me within the narrative of the story but as you say, it's clearly a flaw of Rand's that explains it rather than an opaque aspect of both characters' otherwise unimpeachable ideal portrayal within the story.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
To also clarify, the notion of how this plays into rape fantasy is partially because discussing the book with a female coworker was my first exposure to it having appeal to some women. And second, while it's a "fact" in the book, the events are composed out of idealized fantasy originating in Rand's mind. Why Rand would apply this to idealized persons tells us something about Rand which is largely opaque to me. I don't understand it, and don't pretend to. I also don't understand foot fetishes, furries, and all kinds of fetish stuffs. Like with religion, I tend to view people's private fantasy and fetishes as their own business provided they don't cross over to the criminal, nor do I expect there ought to be a universal standard to which all people must conform. Where such conformity is needed for society, there is law to serve that purpose. Minority Report-style thought crime punishment being a justifiable concern, I'm for self-policing against hard lined judgements towards people with differing views on such.
But part of that is stating there are things I just don't get because that's part of the broader dialog towards tolerance.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I had to ask my wife if she knew that 57% of women fantasize about rape based off this thread. She asked me why I'm communicating with a psychopath. I explained to her that a study was conducted and linked, she then asked me what mental ward the researcher was polling from.
Well how scientific of you. If you want to be taken seriously you should at least make arguments with some evidence for why these studies have it wrong.
One will note that EAllusion thinks if you fantasize about rape or raping someone you're enlightened and progressive.
It statements like this why you end up losing all credibility. You are either lying or incredibly stupid.
Just curious: is your signature line Jackie Robinson or Douglas Adams?
"The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization." - Will Durant "We've kept more promises than we've even made" - Donald Trump "Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist." - Edwin Land
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Anyway. EAllusion inadvertently either outed himself as a believer in poorly polled studies, a psychopath, or somehow just proved that 57% of women are depraved lunatics.
Pick your poison. I'm going to go ahead and not believe that 57% of women fantasize about getting raped, and I'll just roll with EAllusion thinking I'm puritanical. I can live with a pro-rape fantasist believing I'm sexually stodgy.
eta: This thread kind of gives, "Grab 'em by the pussy!" a whole new angle. Phew.
Doc, EAllusion gave you research studies, and you only give him your feelings and assumptions.
Doc, it is harder to control our thoughts and fantasies. When I was a young teenage Mormon I used to think sex outside marraige was dirty and evil, but that didn't stop me from fantasying of having a lot of sex. It was so bad I couldn't sleep for hours on many nights, it was a problem I had for many years. I just couldn't get the sex out of my head, even though I believed it was a sin next to murder.
EAllusion wrote: The accuser is getting a fair amount of flak. What consequence do you think she should suffer? Her accusation hinges not on false reporting of the facts, but an understanding of what constitutes assault that is more loose than what the general public understands it to be.
Hey EAllusion. Do you believe the Walmart employees (and Child Protective Services employees) should be punished for redefining p0rn? See