Dreamers denied

[_Jersey Girl]

cognizant?...as if you can prove when you allegedly became "cognizant"...or that such an event occurred at all.

If we are going to use arbitrary and convenient measures for the value of human life why not just keep it simple....for example - people who disagree with me are really not people and therefore can be maimed, killed, or enslaved at will.

He doesn't have to prove it to you or anyone else. Planned Parenthood v Casey gave him the finalized legal right to make that determination for himself. We all have that right under the law.

If the law ever changes, different story.

[_subgenius]

cognizant?...as if you can prove when you allegedly became "cognizant"...or that such an event occurred at all.

If we are going to use arbitrary and convenient measures for the value of human life why not just keep it simple....for example - people who disagree with me are really not people and therefore can be maimed, killed, or enslaved at will.

He doesn't have to prove it to you or anyone else. Planned Parenthood v Casey gave him the finalized legal right to make that determination for himself. We all have that right under the law.

If the law ever changes, different story.

Hey there knee-jerk, i hate to throw reality all over your bedsheets but Casey replaced the trimester structure with a "VIABILITY" structure...neither of which affirm or deny any concept of cognizant...in fact cognizant is not at all a requirement for one to "viable" (as best exhibited by KG)...even more so, this viability is specific to the potentiality of human life.
So, the poster's introduction of cognizant remains as arbitrary as your archaic notion that a woman should alone decide because of some even more old-fashioned and out-dated notions of mother moon and poor feeble women.

[_Jersey Girl]

Hey there knee-jerk, i hate to throw reality all over your bedsheets but Casey replaced the trimester structure with a "VIABILITY" structure...neither of which affirm or deny any concept of cognizant...in fact cognizant is not at all a requirement for one to "viable" (as best exhibited by KG)...even more so, this viability is specific to the potentiality of human life.
So, the poster's introduction of cognizant remains as arbitrary as your archaic notion that a woman should alone decide because of some even more old-fashioned and out-dated notions of mother moon and poor feeble women.

Defining cognizant isn't necessary to the judgement. It's not necessary to the law itself.

And yes, it's ultimately a woman's right to choose.

Are you opposed to abortion in cases of rape?

[_Markk]

How about you copy my entire post and engage it as the whole interconnected series of thoughts that it was?

Do that and I'll be happy to engage your comments.

Okay...

Jersey Girl wrote...sub I have to admit that I partially act on personal bias whenever I see men discussing this issue. Not one of you has ever conceived nor will you ever fully experience the plight women who have discovered they are unintentionally pregnant or faced the myriad of issues that women face in making decisions.

Are you saying that men can't have an opinion on what abortion is, and that in your opinion only women can have that opinion? What about a woman that has never been pregnant, should they also be silent?


If you find a way to mandate abstinence, let me know. Until then, you need to face the fact that some women don't use contraception, contraceptives fail, men fail women, and sometimes women fail themselves.

So in your opinion, ignorance, or just not giving a rip, or malfunction...justifies abortion of human fetus, or what ever name you call the beginnings of life in the womb.


We've got (mainly) the religious right talking out both sides of it's mouth and wanting to wipe out both ETOP and women's access to contraceptives via Planned Parenthood, some businesses wanting to deny their female employees coverage for contraception under their health coverage plans, while at the same time doing little or nothing to make adoption an easy process to navigate.

I am not sure what ETOP is, but I guess what you are saying is that it is the religious rights fault, along with some business owners that women get pregnant. I suppose we should also blame Jim Beam and Jack Daniels for helping women and men be irresponsible.




Although I am pro-life and also pro-choice, what we shouldn't want for women is taking a step back into back alley clinics or taking things into their own hands in their bathrooms or throwing themselves down flights of stairs, and give them the right to make their own decisions without interference from others.

So you are hypocritical on the subject...and I don't think anyone wants coat hanger medicine. It's a tough subject and hard to be black and white with, I get that, and i am also hypocritical in my thoughts on it.What about abortion as a convenience? What about the women scared from making an uneducated choice at a young age they regret all their life?

But to my point, on your point...what about the baby? Where is their voice?



So,
As for the Dreamers, some folks are simply hypocrites. They were children who were brought into this country by their parents. So it's kind of odd to see a person like you raise up the issue pro-life when you essentially portray yourself as wanting to allow the unborn to be born into this world and you likely have no desire to help the Dreamers who already were.

Two different topic,s but I agree that like abortion, it's a tough topic. But I bet very few people deported to their country of origin, or their parents...die...almost all aborted babies die, and by very horrible brutal death.

What the hell is it that some folks really want? The right to dictate the lives of others?

See my original question

I say we try to come through for as many folks (Dreamers, the unborn, women and men who face unplanned pregnancy) via education and support as we possibly can, because that before all else, is the right and moral thing to do.

In regards to abortion and the unborn, are you stating it is also right and moral to abort those that can not be reached? I am not sure how that statement works for you?

As far as dreamers, it is another subject and should not be lumped together with abortion, at least in my opinion.

[_Bach]

Can anyone here define and delineate the rights we should afford American citizen dreamers and those who are not american citizens? Who should come first and why?

Depending on ones definition, should we afford any and dreamers all over this world the same support we afford American citizen dreamers?

Why, explain ( if you are not military scum!)

[_Jersey Girl]

I'm in the middle of something so let me just say this for now, Markkkkk.

Your claim of hypocrisy on my part is one of the main reasons that I don't think men typically do well discussing the topic. Why? Because instead of thoughtfully reflecting on what I stated, you automatically think that when I say I am both pro-choice and pro-life, I'm contradicting myself when nothing could be further from the truth.

You've clearly given it nor more thought than your interpretation based on a surface read of my post.

I am saying that while I am pro-life and that I don't believe that I have a right to make decisions about what another woman chooses to do with her own body and the contents therein.

[_Markk]

I'm in the middle of something so let me just say this for now, Markkkkk.

Your claim of hypocrisy on my part is one of the main reasons that I don't think men typically do well discussing the topic. Why? Because instead of thoughtfully reflecting on what I stated, you automatically think that when I say I am both pro-choice and pro-life, I'm contradicting myself when nothing could be further from the truth.

You've clearly given it nor more thought than your interpretation based on a surface read of my post.

I am saying that while I am pro-life and that I don't believe that I have a right to make decisions about what another woman chooses to do with her own body and the contents therein.

If you read what I wrote...I said I am also hypocritical. I am not bashing you Jersey Girl.

You are being hypocritical....we are all hypocrites to one degree or another.

The question I have for you if you are pro life, and pro choice, how can they both be moral choices. in my opinion, at least until you clarify your thoughts, that just puts morality in the hands of the woman, in that men can't fathom it, because they are male, and the baby has no personal voice or choice, for obvious reasons?

[Guest]

I'm cool with abortion. It correlates to reduced crime. Unwanted children grow up to rub Consevatives the wrong way. Best nip the issue in the blastula.

- Doc

and I am cool with abortion so I won't pay for child support. No kidding, I plan to have many partners in my life.

[_Jersey Girl]

This will probably be the full extent of my comments on this thread, Markkkkk. I don't plan to spend time going in circles with folks here.

Okay...

Jersey Girl wrote...sub I have to admit that I partially act on personal bias whenever I see men discussing this issue. Not one of you has ever conceived nor will you ever fully experience the plight women who have discovered they are unintentionally pregnant or faced the myriad of issues that women face in making decisions.

Are you saying that men can't have an opinion on what abortion is, and that in your opinion only women can have that opinion? What about a woman that has never been pregnant, should they also be silent?

You can have an opinion all you like. (keep reading)

If you find a way to mandate abstinence, let me know. Until then, you need to face the fact that some women don't use contraception, contraceptives fail, men fail women, and sometimes women fail themselves.

So in your opinion, ignorance, or just not giving a rip, or malfunction...justifies abortion of human fetus, or what ever name you call the beginnings of life in the womb.

When you figure out a way to fix all of the above that I listed, then get back to me. The truth is that human behavior cannot be modified to any degree that you or I might like to see it changed.

We've got (mainly) the religious right talking out both sides of it's mouth and wanting to wipe out both ETOP and women's access to contraceptives via Planned Parenthood, some businesses wanting to deny their female employees coverage for contraception under their health coverage plans, while at the same time doing little or nothing to make adoption an easy process to navigate.

I am not sure what ETOP is, but I guess what you are saying is that it is the religious rights fault, along with some business owners that women get pregnant. I suppose we should also blame Jim Beam and Jack Daniels for helping women and men be irresponsible.

I'm going to ask you to read my words carefully when I make serious post. I said (mainly) the religious right and businesses.

ETOP is early termination of pregnancy or elective termination of pregnancy. Why don't you know that?

Although I am pro-life and also pro-choice, what we shouldn't want for women is taking a step back into back alley clinics or taking things into their own hands in their bathrooms or throwing themselves down flights of stairs, and give them the right to make their own decisions without interference from others.

So you are hypocritical on the subject...and I don't think anyone wants coat hanger medicine. It's a tough subject and hard to be black and white with, I get that, and i am also hypocritical in my thoughts on it.What about abortion as a convenience? What about the women scared from making an uneducated choice at a young age they regret all their life?

As I explained, there's nothing hypocritical in my position. It has not a damn thing to do with black and white. It has to do with me not being willing to make decisions about what another woman should with her own body or the contents therein. The law as it stands gives women that choice and I support that right.

But to my point, on your point...what about the baby? Where is their voice?

The fetus currently has no voice. The truth is that MEN made the laws that are in place. They chose to give women the right to decide what to do with the contents of their own body and how they view those contents.

The crux of my position hinges on this very sentence. Read it carefully.

If you find a way to mandate abstinence, let me know. Until then, you need to face the fact that some women don't use contraception, contraceptives fail, men fail women, and sometimes women fail themselves.


That's the complete truth of the matter.

In closing let me say this, too. There are folks in this country who would extend a compassionate hand to women who discover they've become pregnant due to rape and support their choice to terminate that pregnancy. Markkkk, that fetus did absolutely nothing to deserve that either. That fetus has the same right to survive as you believe any other fetus has the right to the same. We extend a compassionate hand to a victim of rape because we don't want her to suffer further.

The hard truth is that when women give birth to children they didn't want or didn't plan for, the trajectory of their life course will be thrown off course by an unplanned pregnancy, some (note I said SOME) of those women will suffer as well and so will their child should they give birth and raise them.

When we can produce a society that ACTS on their self proclaimed compassion for the unborn, by making adoption and counseling more accessible and compassionate towards women, when you can produce a religious right that puts it's combined money where it's combined mouth is and instead of condemning women for their choice to terminate and [i]take away their resources, and rushes in to embrace them and adopt their babies...then you'll have something going that could indeed change the plight of those women and their babies and effect real change in our society.

Until then, we've got what we've got. A safe and medical way for a woman to change her circumstances. You haven't walked a mile in their moccasins and the truth is that you never will.


And women frequently suffer no matter what choice they make.

I can't take the right to choose away from another woman when I, as a part of this society, am not totally coming through for her should she choose to give birth, raise the child or adopt. I have taught her children adopted or not. I have taught both foreign and domestic adoptees. This past August I went to the celebration of life for an adopted child that I taught. That was a first for me that I hope to never repeat. I was amazed at the generosity and grace that the adoptive parents showed to the birth mother. That extension of grace will stay with me forever and so will the memory of him. He was a high spirited and vibrant boy with everything going for him, even when he was 4. I can't imagine a world without his influence in it. But I know that they had access to resources that many women lack and not everyone cherishes a new life or the birth mother who gave that life.

Well that's enough of me and my ideas here. I'm more sensitive to this topic than any other topic that ever comes up on this board for discussion. It doesn't make me angry, it breaks my heart. I've said everything I'm ever going to say about it.

Departing the thread now.

ETA: I just looked at the post after I posted it. I'm not going to change the formatting to make it more readable. You'll have to live with it as it stands.

[_Jersey Girl]

Another child just came quickly to mind. The child of a low income mother. I first met her when she was 3 years old. When she smiled at me, all I could see was silver. Her entire mouth was filled with crowns. Why? Because Mom let her drink those fruit punch drinks that used to come in plastic bottles when she was a toddler and laid her down with a bottle in her mouth letting the sugary drink pool around her teeth. Why? Because Mom didn't know any better, she thought she was giving her fruit juice (also a nutritional no-no these days) and her baby liked those drinks. And they were cheap.

There you have a case of (through no real fault of her own) a mother who was ignorant regarding nutrition and dental health.

Worry about those children too, folks. They're right under your radar where you can't see them.