MAD's Most Insightful Comment Ever.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Cinepro, in an exchange with Scott Lloyd perfectly describes the mindset of most members and highlights the huge divide that exists between Mopologists and the membership.

There is only a single Church. There may be differing conceptions or opinions of that one church, but there is only one.

Cinepro's very insightful and profound response:

Uh, I respectfully beg to differ. Not only do I think you're wrong, but I think that's a dangerous and ultimately counterproductive idea.

There isn't one "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." There are 15 million different "churches." Because every member has a different idea of what the Church is. The Church that I go to is very, very different than the Church that my father goes to. He goes to a Church that rejects the theory of evolution, and believes in a Book of Mormon where the Book of Mormon peoples came to a continent devoid of inhabitants. And that's different than the Church you go to, Scott. On Sunday, when you look around, every person sitting in the pews is seeing a different Church. They hear the talks differently, they draw on different experiences to understand the lessons. They cling to different teachings, and reject others. And they may be totally unaware of things that other members consider the most important things.

Growing up in the 1980s, I had a fantastic experience in the Church. Great leaders and activities. Good friends. I couldn't ask for more. My sister has a friend who lived in our stake, and I later found out he was molested by someone in their ward (and in the scouting program). Did that friend grow up in the same Church as me? No, they didn't. The LDS Church they grew up in bears no relation to the one I grew up in, and when I found out they left the Church, do I blame them? No. I probably would have left that Church too.

A few years ago our family had a very traumatic experience that involved gross incompetence and insensitivity on the part of some ward and stake leaders. It didn't do much to change my "Church", becuase I already knew they were incompetent, but it radically changed my wife's "Church", where before she had always assumed inspiration and divine guidance for the leaders (as she had been taught her whole life) and now she goes to a different Church, one where even Stake leaders are idiots sometimes and make huge errors in judgement.

Every time we learn something new about the Church or Church history, the Church changes. The Church changed when I learned about Joseph Smith's reliance on Adam Clarke for the JST. But it only changed for me. My dad hasn't read that article, so it didn't change for him. And when President Nelson sits on the stand at General Conference, he smiles as he looks out on a Church that believes Adam and Eve had no blood in their veins and that evolution is "unbelievable", while scores of members smile back at him, thankful to have a Prophet who is leading a Church that is totally open to the idea of organic evolution and pre-Adamites.

Realizing this is puts a weight on my shoulders, because I realize that when I go to Church, I'm not just there to participate in some objective entity known as "The Church." No, instead I realize that the interactions that I have with other people are creating the Church for them, and they for me. And it gives me hope because I recognize that the Church will continue to change and evolve as the members and leaders change and evolve, and sometimes things that appear eternal and bedrock can change because if enough members and leaders agree that they're changing, then the Church changes. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that is what is going to happen (or may already be happening) with the Church and homosexuality. Regardless of what the Church leaders say, as more and more members tell themselves they go to a Church that feels a certain way about homosexuality, then bit by bit the Church will change. The only way to stop it is to cut off the part that is changing by kicking that change out of the Church, but I suspect the change will be so big that it won't be a feasible option.

So while I recognize the seductiveness of the idea that there is one "LDS Church" that we are all participating in, I don't think that is a helpful way to look at how the Church actually operates and exists.

And in response, we get this gem from Scott Lloyd who lies and states he didn't bother reading Cinepro's comment:

Ah, a variation on the "my truth" vs. "your truth" nonsense.

I didn't read further because I fundamentally reject this notion. As Ben Shapiro has said, there's no such thing as "my truth." There is only THE truth and opinion.

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/701 ... ve/?page=3

[_candygal]

I gave him an upvote...that was so good. It speaks pretty much to every Mormon...every ex Mormon and any other kind of Mormon there is and every was...our interpretations are our needs.

[Guest]

Lloyd is such a douche. The exchange is itself the most perfect illustration of Cinepro's point.

Folks like Cinepro give me hope for Mormonism. A great people of amazing potential, distracted and trivialized by pinhead managers.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

That was a fantastic bit of insight by Cinepro not only regarding the Church but regarding virtually everything we observe as human beings. I'll tuck that one away in my brain bank.

- Doc

[_Maksutov]

Scotty even invokes St. Ben:

"As Ben Shapiro has said..."

Now THAT is an argument from authority.

[_Dr Exiled]

I think religion has to go to more of a relativist/myth admission sort of a paradigm. Religion, at its core, is subjective unproveable, and works for some because of allowing subjective interpretation to be involved. However, charging for the experience while not adequately disclosing where the money goes is highly problematic and should be disallowed by law.

[_Meadowchik]

It's not mutually exclusive, though, to have different experiences with "one true church." But if there is a true church, it isn't the LDS. Different experiences cannot change the internal anachronisms of the church itself.

[_cwald]

Well as much as I respect cinepro and wish he was right and even argued for years that this concept was the way it was meant to be, I think he is dead wrong. Scott Lloyd is 100% correct on this one, there is only one LDS church and it is defined by 15 old white guys in Salt Lake City and that's a fact. And as much as I wish that was not the case if you try to argue it or teach something different you could be subject to church discipline as an apostate. We have seen it happen hundreds of times.

From the eyes of the Q15 and the average devout member the only person who would argue that there are 15 million individual LDS churches would be an apostate. Yes Scott Lloyd is a douche. But he is merely mirroring what most active Mormons would say.

[_Dr Exiled]

Well as much as I respect cinepro and wish he was right and even argued for years that this concept was the way it was meant to be, I think he is dead wrong. Scott Lloyd is 100% correct on this one, there is only one LDS church and it is defined by 15 old white guys in Salt Lake City and that's a fact. And as much as I wish that was not the case if you try to argue it or teach something different you could be subject to church discipline as an apostate. We have seen it happen hundreds of times.

From the eyes of the Q15 and the average devout member the only person who would argue that there are 15 million individual LDS churches would be an apostate. Yes Scott Lloyd is a douche. But he is merely mirroring what most active Mormons would say.

They probably would agree in theory with an objective black and white paradigm because that is what is preached, but my guess is their subjective interpretation is different from what the Q15 say it is in practice, however so slight that is.

[_Maksutov]

Well as much as I respect cinepro and wish he was right and even argued for years that this concept was the way it was meant to be, I think he is dead wrong. Scott Lloyd is 100% correct on this one, there is only one LDS church and it is defined by 15 old white guys in Salt Lake City and that's a fact. And as much as I wish that was not the case if you try to argue it or teach something different you could be subject to church discipline as an apostate. We have seen it happen hundreds of times.

From the eyes of the Q15 and the average devout member the only person who would argue that there are 15 million individual LDS churches would be an apostate. Yes Scott Lloyd is a douche. But he is merely mirroring what most active Mormons would say.

Yep, you're in or out, you follow the prophet or you don't. Goat or sheep. Not exactly a uniting concept, but religion seems more about tribal cohesion than loving humanity.