The NRA implies why "other factors" aren't the issue

[_Gadianton]

On other threads, Markk repeatedly brings up "other factors" -- contributions to mass shootings beyond the physical gun itself, and so here is a thread for that conversation. I feel on the other threads, this changes the subject. I'm not saying this is intentional, but either way, it's not the topic of my thread on erroding civil liberties.

I have tried to discuss some of the other factors that lead to the violence, as has many like LaPierre , and it is almost impossible to have a conversation.

It's not relevant right now. To understand why, I'll need some help from my friends at the NRA.

Consider the NRA article on choosing a gun safe

There are many reasons why you as a gun owner should seriously consider investing in a gun safe. The first is to prevent children who are too young to understand gun safety from gaining access to your firearms...and even if your children are well-educated and responsible, consider that their friends may not be.

At what age are children old enough to understand gun safety? What is the level of firearm safety education a child needs? Who are their friends? What is the psychological profile of their friends? What are the parents of my children's friends like, and what is their level firearm experience and responsibility? These are questions we will need to discuss in-depth before I even consider purchasing a gun safe.

The gun safe is a stop-gap. The proposal to ban guns is a stop-gap. The proposal to arm teachers is a stop-gap.

In the technology world, we distinguish between incidents and problems. An incident could be a website outage. The outage could have 20 different contributing factors, but the solution, to get the website back up, might be to unplug a single cable or reboot a particular server. It might be incredibly complicated to just figure out the right stop-gap. A problem is a recurring incident. The stop-gap might be to have someone monitor the CPU of a particular server and immediately reboot when it reaches a certain level. But resolving the problem involves analyzing many factors and possibly making several changes to the environment so the CPU doesn't spike right at that bad time.

The suggestions to ban violent movies and rap music and so on, are part of a larger conversation about a problem environment, and are not serious proposals for stop-gaps for resolving incidents. Gun advocates seem to be on the same page, in that the recommendations are stop-gaps such as more police and armed teachers. Ironically, the line of argument to solve the problem first, to heal a sick environment that leads to gun violence is self-defeating. Guns, according to Starbuck, Wayne, Dana, are primarily for self-defense. If we follow the logic of healing society socially first so that people don't commit gun crimes and succeed, then we won't, in fact, need guns anymore. So we might as well get rid of the guns now, as that's the quickest way to stop gun violence, and then work on healing society.

This is obvious when the NRA's argument for the gun safe is understood.

[_Some Schmo]

The gun debate in this country suffers two major problems right out of the gate:

- Every conversation about solutions comes from the base assumption that America has to have the "right" to bear guns (hence you get ludicrous ideas like arming teachers, and your gun safe example)

- Gun owners seem to be so paranoid, even the hint of a conversation that might move gun legislation is blocked and rejected as infringement of some lunatic's "rights." So even sensible ideas like more rigorous background checks makes the crazy people come out of the woodwork and scream "tyranny!"

I remember I was discussing the Sandy Hook incident back when it happened with some co-workers, just talking about how tragic it was, how little kids are victims to the idiotic whims of adults (we must have guns!) Some douche wonders over that I've never talked to, and the first words he spoke to me were, "Don't I have a right to protect my family?" I thought, Is a gun the only way you know how to do that? Your poor damned family... but instead, I said, "I don't have time for this nonsense" and walked away. I'm not going to have a gun debate at work (not appropriate), especially with someone I've heard is a religious nut.

In my experience, you can't have a reasonable conversation with gun nuts (concerning "other factors" or whatever) because they're literally nuts over guns.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

[_Markk]

On other threads, Markk repeatedly brings up "other factors" -- contributions to mass shootings beyond the physical gun itself, and so here is a thread for that conversation. I feel on the other threads, this changes the subject. I'm not saying this is intentional, but either way, it's not the topic of my thread on erroding civil liberties.

I have tried to discuss some of the other factors that lead to the violence, as has many like LaPierre , and it is almost impossible to have a conversation.

It's not relevant right now. To understand why, I'll need some help from my friends at the NRA.

Consider the NRA article on choosing a gun safe

There are many reasons why you as a gun owner should seriously consider investing in a gun safe. The first is to prevent children who are too young to understand gun safety from gaining access to your firearms...and even if your children are well-educated and responsible, consider that their friends may not be.

At what age are children old enough to understand gun safety? What is the level of firearm safety education a child needs? Who are their friends? What is the psychological profile of their friends? What are the parents of my children's friends like, and what is their level firearm experience and responsibility? These are questions we will need to discuss in-depth before I even consider purchasing a gun safe.

The gun safe is a stop-gap. The proposal to ban guns is a stop-gap. The proposal to arm teachers is a stop-gap.

In the technology world, we distinguish between incidents and problems. An incident could be a website outage. The outage could have 20 different contributing factors, but the solution, to get the website back up, might be to unplug a single cable or reboot a particular server. It might be incredibly complicated to just figure out the right stop-gap. A problem is a recurring incident. The stop-gap might be to have someone monitor the CPU of a particular server and immediately reboot when it reaches a certain level. But resolving the problem involves analyzing many factors and possibly making several changes to the environment so the CPU doesn't spike right at that bad time.

The suggestions to ban violent movies and rap music and so on, are part of a larger conversation about a problem environment, and are not serious proposals for stop-gaps for resolving incidents. Gun advocates seem to be on the same page, in that the recommendations are stop-gaps such as more police and armed teachers. Ironically, the line of argument to solve the problem of a sick environment that leads to gun violence is self-defeating. Guns, according to Starbuck, Wayne, Dana, are primarily for self-defense. If we follow the logic of healing society socially first so that people don't commit gun crimes and succeed, then we won't, in fact, need guns anymore. So we might as well get rid of the guns now, as that's the quickest way to stop gun violence, and then work on healing society.

This is obvious when the NRA's argument for the gun safe is understood.

Your kinda proving my point, it is only about the gun to "you" (many folks in general). Conversations about the reason the person choose to do such terrible things are pretty much off the table by many of those that want guns banned.

When I first brought it up, you said it "was complicated" and basically implied it was pretty much off the table for discussion and not an issue . You also said, and I para phrase, you were not in favor of messing with the 1st amendment, but agreed that there are factors there that can lead to messing up our youth.

You can go to the NRA website and find article upon article why "guns aren't the problem" and read about their opinions as to what other factors are. So your premise does not really hit what the NRA's position is.

LaPierre's recent speech touched on other factors.

Gun folks are for armed security, becasue it is unfortunately a reality we live with and have lived with for many years. We have armed security at banks, stores, events...many high profile folks who oppose guns, have well trained armed security. So to point, folk are for security becasue it is needed, and something that can be pretty much done by a school board signing a piece of paper in many if not most cases.

Glad...we do have the capability to discuss all the issues...you are acting as if folks don't have the time to discuss the reality of the problem. Read some of the threads here...is discussing what DCP ate last week more import a discussion?

Read a bottle of medication, it reads keep out of reach of children...that is why most have caps I can't even open without first figuring out what model it is...I have a tough time opening a Listerine bottle at 4 in the morning sometimes...it is no different with a gun safe...they are to keep people who should not have them, get them. Opioids kill a lot of folks, and they put them in tamper proof bottles and even lock them up...and you can't even get them legally without a back ground check and permit (doctor and prescription)...should we just ban them becasue they are abused, and screw the folks that follow the rules?

This a good start in a real conversation, and thanks for that, and I do appreciate and respect your opinions, and you make me think.

So setting aside banning the gun, we have several threads on that... lets start with the graphic nature of our movies and TV...that glorify killing or those that do so, and again in a very real time graphic nature. Do they contribute to the problem, and basically "seduce" with ideas to those like the kid that just shot up the school...even if glorifying the gun he chose to use?

[_Kishkumen]

Markk, I think Dean Robbers has made it pretty clear that he did not want to derail another thread but was happy to discuss the issues here.

Most people favor reasonable gun legislation because that would indeed be helpful, or at the very least responsive. The primary message of the NRA is to arm more unqualified people.

[_Some Schmo]

Your kinda proving my point, it is only about the gun to "you" (many folks in general). Conversations about the reason the person choose to do such terrible things are pretty much off the table by many of those that want guns banned.

Mental health is and has always been on the table. It's what we hear after every tragedy of this kind. What has Congress done about it? What are we doing to prevent insane people from getting guns? Are we up for universal health care? Make sure we're treating all these insane people before they go on their next killing spree?

Of course there are other factors - people do crazy crap for crazy reasons. The problem is that when they do it, they have easy access to deadly weapons in this country. In other countries, when people do crazy crap, they have to really work at it. They don't have the "freedom" to walk down to the flee market and buy a gun in 10 minutes.

So, ya know, a focus on the thing that exacerbates the crazy is in order.

[_Fence Sitter]

Mental health is and has always been on the table. It's what we hear after every tragedy of this kind. What has Congress done about it? What are we doing to prevent insane people from getting guns? Are we up for universal health care? Make sure we're treating all these insane people before they go on their next killing spree?

Of course there are other factors - people do crazy ____ for crazy reasons. The problem is that when they do it, they have easy access to deadly weapons in this country. In other countries, when people do crazy ____, they have to really work at it. They don't have the "freedom" to walk down to the flee market and buy a gun in 10 minutes.

So, ya know, a focus on the thing that exacerbates the crazy is in order.

Mental health is only the issue here because of the high profile these types of cases have. Guns used by people without mental health issues kill many many times more people than this type of occurrence but of course no one is interested in the many of victims of gang violence, domestic violence, or robbery that occur through out the country on a daily basis. Or the fact that the mentally ill are many more times likely to be victims of violent crimes than they are to commit them, so yeah we can spout off about how we need to keep guns out of the hands of the "crazys" but the reality is that even if that were somehow possible it would not even be a drop in the bucket difference in the amount of lives taken each year by guns.

We talk about the "crazys" like they are easily identifiable or uncommon, when neither is true. "oh but it is just those who are really crazy we need to watch" you may say like there is some sort of stable version of crazy out there or like people can't take a sudden unexpected turn for the worse, none of which is true. So what kind of system would even be possible to make sure no one who is "crazy" or even has the possibility of turning "crazy" never gets guns in their hands?

The answer is there is no such system and instead of trying to prevent this horrible type of occurrence by identifying all such people we need to approach prevention from other more practical angles like outlawing these ridiculous destructive weapons and ammo.

The "crazys" that are the problem here are the ones who insist on a right to own a weapon capable of quickly and effectively killing a lot of people.

[_Some Schmo]

The answer is there is no such system and instead of trying to prevent this horrible type of occurrence by identifying all such people we need to approach prevention from other more practical angles like outlawing these ridiculous destructive weapons and ammo.

The "crazys" that are the problem here are the ones who insist on a right to own a weapon capable of quickly and effectively killing a lot of people.

Of course.

This is my way of calling out this claim, that we should address the mental health issue. How do we do that, exactly? And if we take such measures, will that prevent mass killings in the future?

by the way, there's a distinction to be made between crazy people and people who do crazy things. Everyone does crazy things, not everyone is crazy. It's just that some of the crazy things people do are more harmful than others.

And I actually do think there's a mental health crisis in this country, but the real one isn't the one the NRA describes or wants you to consider.

[_Fence Sitter]

And I actually do think there's a mental health crisis in this country, but the real one isn't the one the NRA describes or wants you to consider.

The best thing we could do right now is to get the crazy place holder we have as President, out of that office. The damage that idiot is doing on all fronts, including mental health issues, will take years if not decades to undo.

There has always been a mental health crisis, here and throughout the world. We are just starting to take notice of it, but unfortunately having some idiot in power call them "crazys" is about as damaging as it gets because it lumps one truly disturbed individual in with hundreds of thousands of safe people who manage their illnesses without ever harming anyone. So the next time a bipolar person wants to seek help for a condition he can now expect everyone around him to look at him as if he is a potential mass killer. Yeah that is really a great way to help out these people.

Trump is the problem.

[_Markk]

Markk, I think Dean Robbers has made it pretty clear that he did not want to derail another thread but was happy to discuss the issues here.

Most people favor reasonable gun legislation because that would indeed be helpful, or at the very least responsive. The primary message of the NRA is to arm more unqualified people.

So what about my question,

lets start with the graphic nature of our movies and TV...that glorify killing or those that do so, and again in a very real time graphic nature. Do they contribute to the problem, and basically "seduce" with ideas to those like the kid that just shot up the school...even if glorifying the gun he chose to use?