Morley wrote:Like you, I come from a gun culture, Markk. Taught by grandfather at age eight; rifle as Christmas gift at twelve; small-arms combat in a war zone; hunting with father; built my own blackpower; children and siblings in military and police jobs; the whole ball of wax. I'd give up my nine firearms in a New York minute for a chance that the life of a kid gets saved.
Then do so...the police department will take them and dispose of them. If you think that your nine gun are going to kill children...then you should.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Jersey Girl wrote:Markkkkk which gun would you be in favor of banning in the US that might contribute to a reduction in mass shootings?
Name one.
Neither...I am stating that the OP's argument is fruitless. There are millions of these types of weapons, and it is rare that mass shootings happen...it is a cliché...but responsible people don't murder people.
You said you were not against a total ban of guns, so asking you the same loaded question...what weapons are you in favor in banning to reduce mass shootings, and gun violence in general, after all more people die in "regular" shootings than in mass shootings...far more.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Morley wrote: I'm fine with banning the AR-15. I'm fine with banning some other weapons, too. I'm fine with limiting magazines. The list goes on about all the glorious things I'm fine with, today.
As I said before, I don't think anyone has said that they only want to ban the AR-15. Stop implying that's all anyone wants to do.
You say something else is just as bad as the AR-15? I'm going say thank you very much, let's get rid of that s.o.b., too.
And that is your right.
The AR-15 is not the only weapon, but my point is that there are weapons like the mini-14 that are not on the ban list...that are basically the same weapon, in a different dress.
If you want to get rid of all weapons that are like the AR-15...then that make sense from your side of the discussion.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Sounds to me as if you don't know the mini-14 is a civilian version of the M-14 that was used by the US Military in the 1960s - or that it was the military forerunner of the M-16 and M-4.
The M-14 chambered to the 7.62 mm NATO round was the standard issue rifle in the Marine Corps for many years. It was an exceedingly accurate weapon. I carried one. There are lots of examples of semi automatic rifles that are not variants of military issue weapons. What little credibility you have here would be enhanced if you chose such weapons as examples of weapons that were not designed specifically to kill humans.
I am aware of no mass shootings carried out with a 7.62 mm mini-14. They aren't sexy, don't look cool, and don't attract the gun culture crowd like a weapon would that looks like a modern M-4 or an M-16 - the ones depicted in war themed first person shooter video games, or seen on TV.
I am well aware the evolution of the mini 14, which mostly shoots a 223/5.56 (not a 7.62 as you wrote, that is a mini 30 I believe) as do most AR-15's. And it has several models, the tactical can be very "sexy" as you put it, and you can put a bump stock on it also.
The mini 14 vs the AR-15 is like Ford and Chevy...you have those that like one and others that like the other. A basic mini ranch, which was used in the Norway mass shooting of 77 dead, can be bought for $1000.00 and upgraded with accessories to be as "sexy" as you want it to be.
As an example the M14 was preferred by many in Vietnam over the M-16...and many like the mini and claim it is more dependable than the AR-15.
Again, The Norway mass shooting, which 77 were killed, was carried out by a standard mini 14, with 223 rounds just like AR-15 used in Florida.
I cut and pasted this from a quick google search on other mass shootings by the Mini 14.
Founded in 1949, the “corporate motto” of Sturm, Ruger & Co. is “Arms Makers for Responsible Citizens.” But Sturm, Ruger firearms are also often found in the hands of mass shooters: last year’s attack at a Connecticut beer distributor, leaving eight victims dead and two wounded; the 1999 shooting at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Texas, leaving seven victims dead and seven wounded; Oregon’s Thurston High School in 1998, leaving four dead and 22 wounded; the 1993 Long Island Railroad shooting, leaving six dead and 19 wounded; the 1991 Luby’s massacre, leaving 23 victims dead and 20 wounded; and, a 1987 shootout at a Florida shopping center, leaving six dead, including two police officers.
This is why I say many just do not understand what they are arguing.
Markk,
So, let me get this straight. You claimed that the mini-14 was not an assault rifle (and would therefore presumably not come under an assault rifle ban). You claimed that it was an example of a weapon that could fire as a semi automatic just like an AR-15 but was not being discussed in the context of an assault rifle ban.
Then you admit that it was originally designed as a military weapon, can be fitted with a bump stock, and has been used in mass shootings. Why then, would it not come under an assault rifle ban?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
Even though I think we should just ban weapons except for a few exceptions here and there (hunters, sports, law enforcement). I'd be ok with treating them like cars, registering them, getting a license for use only after going through a handling course and test, and getting an annual renewal 'tag' so we can offset the cost of people murdering one another. And you have to get a 'tag' for each weapon.
If you're too poor to responsibly to own a weapon then #thoughtsandprayers.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Even though I think we should just ban weapons except for a few exceptions here and there (hunters, sports, law enforcement). I'd be ok with treating them like cars, registering them, getting a license for use only after going through a handling course and test, and getting an annual renewal 'tag' so we can offset the cost of people murdering one another. And you have to get a 'tag' for each weapon.
If you're too poor to responsibly to own a weapon then #thoughtsandprayers.
- Doc
Do you really believe a bad guy would register their gun...or a sick person would not use a registered gun?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Even though I think we should just ban weapons except for a few exceptions here and there (hunters, sports, law enforcement). I'd be ok with treating them like cars, registering them, getting a license for use only after going through a handling course and test, and getting an annual renewal 'tag' so we can offset the cost of people murdering one another. And you have to get a 'tag' for each weapon.
If you're too poor to responsibly to own a weapon then #thoughtsandprayers.
- Doc
Do you really believe a bad guy would register their gun...or a sick person would not use a registered gun?
No. And then the bad guy gets charged. That's kind of how it works, you know, like what's happening right now.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
From the OP wrote:It’s clear to me that AR-15 or other high-velocity weapons, especially when outfitted with a high-capacity magazine, have no place in a civilian’s gun cabinet.
QED.
Markk wrote:See what I wrote in my op to the thread...it is the rounds, not so much the weapons...AR's come in "low velocity" rounds also. I also stated that there are plenty of lower velocity rounds, that can do just as much or more damage. The AR-15 argument is a straw-man argument in all reality.
Cool. If you come across a debate in which the AR-15 is the sole focus, you're all set.
So, let me get this straight. You claimed that the mini-14 was not an assault rifle (and would therefore presumably not come under an assault rifle ban). You claimed that it was an example of a weapon that could fire as a semi automatic just like an AR-15 but was not being discussed in the context of an assault rifle ban.
Then you admit that it was originally designed as a military weapon, can be fitted with a bump stock, and has been used in mass shootings. Why then, would it not come under an assault rifle ban?
Because it is not on the list of assault rifles, it was protected in the 94 federal ban. I can buy one here in Ca, just like the one that killed 77 in a mass shooting, but I can not buy an AR-15.
I will also say "assault weapon" is not really a good term...a semi auto is a semi auto and fires as fast as one pulls the trigger. The gun control people in charge are either ignorant or really don't care.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"