Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_ajax18]

Well. California IS extremely wealthy. There's just a wealth disparity. But that's already been addressed.

I do believe unmitigated immigration from poor nations cause two apparent things:

1) It introduces a massive amount of people willing to work for less money than your average American. This stagnates wages which are just a product of market forces. Why pay more when you can pay less because this pool of laborers will work for less. This has always been an issue with mass immigration dating back to the 1800's. You're just not going to get around this at all, and if you artificially increase wages then all you do is expedite inflation.

2) You can't grow more land. So if you take a region, say, that originally supports 5 million people, and introduce 1 million people willing to work for less money than they inhabitants you're going to shift labor to the cheaper pool AND real estate is going to sky rocket. That's a fact. And then you start to see multiple families living at one property, homelessness, drug abuse, so on and so forth.

So, while immigration is generally a better deal for desperate people who have virtually no options in their native lands the natives either have to adapt, accept a huge decrease in their living standards, or give in to drug use, depression, whatever because they can't adapt and they don't want to work like dogs.

- Doc

You astonish me at how much common sense, self reliance, and work ethic, one can have and still vote Democrat. You've done it again.

[_EAllusion]

Have you ever been to LA, Orange County, IE, or San Diego?

In what way do you believe traveling to these Southern California would be a superior means of understanding the economic impact of immigration than research by economists?

The implication here, of course, is that your anecdotal experience supersedes research, but if you feel that way, you should spell it out more.

[_EAllusion]

Well. California IS extremely wealthy. There's just a wealth disparity. But that's already been addressed.

I do believe unmitigated immigration from poor nations cause two apparent things:

1) It introduces a massive amount of people willing to work for less money than your average American. This stagnates wages which are just a product of market forces. Why pay more when you can pay less because this pool of laborers will work for less. This has always been an issue with mass immigration dating back to the 1800's. You're just not going to get around this at all, and if you artificially increase wages then all you do is expedite inflation.

2) You can't grow more land. So if you take a region, say, that originally supports 5 million people, and introduce 1 million people willing to work for less money than they inhabitants you're going to shift labor to the cheaper pool AND real estate is going to sky rocket. That's a fact. And then you start to see multiple families living at one property, homelessness, drug abuse, so on and so forth.

So, while immigration is generally a better deal for desperate people who have virtually no options in their native lands the natives either have to adapt, accept a huge decrease in their living standards, or give in to drug use, depression, whatever because they can't adapt and they don't want to work like dogs.

- Doc

You astonish me at how much common sense, self reliance, and work ethic, one can have and still vote Democrat. You've done it again.

Doc does have a fair amount of Ajax in him. This is true.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

And EA hides his regressive hatefulness behind a plastic shield of virtue. The shield is see-through, of course.

- Doc

[_DoubtingThomas]

I'm not sure I really buy the Clinton would have gotten more done argument. GOP obstructionism would have been the same for any Democrat.

and that is the reason why a Republican needed to win in 2016. Hopefully the Democrats can now win the White House and Congress in 2020 to get something done.

[_EAllusion]

And EA hides his regressive hatefulness behind a plastic shield of virtue. The shield is see-through, of course.

- Doc

Uh huh. The reason Ajax sees so much virtue and sense in you is because you often express Ajax-lite views on the subjects that matter the most to him.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

And EAllusion hides his regressive hatefulness behind a plastic shield of virtue. The shield is see-through, of course.

- Doc

Uh huh. The reason Ajax sees so much virtue and sense in you is because you often express Ajax-lite views on the subjects that matter the most to him.

You jelly, bro? Can't stand that someone else gets a little pat on the back for an observation? You complaining about that is akin to me complaining that the raging social Marxist Chap thinks you might have a neat insight to something. Sad.

eta: by the way, your comment about immigration raising wages for everyone because they consume things is retarded. Globalism, i.e., trade disparities, technological progress, and national production capability has put the squeeze on low-skill workers here domestically. It's not a mystery the foreign manufacturing sector grew resulting in job losses here and were substantial in various production areas. We also produce more with fewer workers. Those workers who are faced with the choice of shifting to another trade that is low-skill are met with massive competition by unregulated immigration. Like I said before they either adapt, work like dogs with the lower wage low-skill immigrants, or turn to escapism. The idea that massive amounts of low-skill workers have increased everyone's standard of living is laughable when realities such as limited land availability create multiple families living in a one home or apartment, rents and home prices outpace low-skill wages, and artificially raising minimum wage just pushes the inflation index higher quicker.

I'm not anti-immigration. The browning of America doesn't terrify me. I just think policy makers would look at the situation pragmatically and create solutions that address the problems both they and businessmen have created. For example, in LA builders have a myriad of restrictions that make it cost prohibitive to build a crap load of microapartments. The government ought to work in conjunction with builders so affordable housing can be built, both parties get a good ROI on the investment, and low-skill low-wage workers can live where they work, albeit maybe with less square footage.

Pragmatically addressing some of the issues brought up in this thread, and then executing governance that is fair to everyone is the benchmark for leadership. I'm not seeing that really happening other than the odd municipality here and there.

- Doc

[_Markk]

Have you ever been to LA, Orange County, IE, or San Diego?

In what way do you believe traveling to these Southern California would be a superior means of understanding the economic impact of immigration than research by economists?

The implication here, of course, is that your anecdotal experience supersedes research, but if you feel that way, you should spell it out more.

I will take that as a no.

Because you would see that you have no idea what you are even talking about. American born minorities , and whites here with high school and even community college educations can't even get jobs in certain jobs, trades and vocations.

You have no idea what you are talking about, and you can't possible understand the magnitude of the immigration issue that is occurring.

The company I work with, depending on current contracts, employs anywhere from 100 to 200 workers. As far as I now, of all those workers, we have one white guy...and the rest are 1st or 2nd generation Hispanic immigrants, many illegals come through and get let go after the system catches up with them, and others get by the system, and many have green cards.

How many illegals have you worked with EA, how many do you know? I have good friends of 20 or more years that are currently here illegally, one is a very good friend who I even helped get out of a detention center after he was caught at a check point. He has "dreamer" son in the Marine Corp.

Many if not most of these workers, and workers here in so cal make the same wages or less that I made in the 1970's as an apprentice carpenter. When we do public funded projects they can make a 120K or more a year due to the Davis Bacon Act.

Then there are unions...wages rates are the same across the board...whether immigrant or not...are you telling me most union members don't have high school educations?

How this translates into making more money for high school graduates and up... is beyond me...it makes more for business owners and corporation CEO's, but that has nothing to do with education.

If you ever get to So CA. Let me know and I will give you a guided tour. There is a whole world out here you can't possibly fathom.

To answer your specific question, your research is crapola.

[_EAllusion]

I will take that as a no.

Because you would see that you have no idea what you are even talking about.

I have been to Southern California, yes. I'm just not ignorant enough to think this would somehow make me more qualified to opine on the economic impact of immigration on wage growth in the United States than economists who are experts in the matter.

I can say that your belief that your in your reasoning with your personal experience being superior to actual academic research is a major symptom in what's currently wrong with America, though.

[_EAllusion]

[

You jelly, bro? Can't stand that someone else gets a little pat on the back for an observation? You complaining about that is akin to me complaining that the raging social Marxist Chap thinks you might have a neat insight to something. Sad.

No, I'm not jealous that a Nazi sympathizer is prone to praising your views on immigration, gender, and race.

But just a reminder that "social marxisim" isn't actually a thing, but rather is a pejorative used primarily in online communities focused on right-wing politics. In case you ever want to wise up or something.

eta: by the way, your comment about immigration raising wages for everyone because they consume things is retarded.

Classy. I'm citing mainstream opinion of economists that I've backed up with amble references to publications in blue-chip journals in the past. That you consider economics "retarded" is not my problem. To be clear, though, what I actually said is that immigration spurs wage growth among everyone with the exception of a modest depressing effect (a few centsish an hour) on those without a high-school diploma. That's significant for them, though not a world-changing effect, nor necessarily a basis to warp policy for everyone else. The effect overall is slight.