Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_Some Schmo]

Hey Schmo,

Total onboard with agreeing to disagree and moving on. considering our clown in chief is starting a global trade war to distract the media from focusing on the disarray in the white house, we probably have more pressing concerns we agree on anyway.

That's for certain.

[_Themis]

Then seeing that you agree with EAllusion, and did not address some of the examples that I gave...share with me the data you read that would make you agree with EAllusion?

I agreed with EA that the experts are going to have the most accurate information.

[_Themis]

With their ____ ing eyeballs? This isn't a mystery.

- Doc

And what should their eye balls be looking at to get the most accurate information?

[_Themis]

You can make numbers read anyway you like in a large economy,

LOL That sounds a lot like apologia. Hey people can make numbers up so we should ignore all numbers.

yet you can objectively take a tour of LA and alike and see it is turning into a poop hole. Especially if you lived here for 60 years and have watched it crumble.

Poop hole is a very subjective term. Certainly we can see how areas change over time, although accurately knowing what factors are responsible is not so easy. I have no idea how going on a tour or living in in an area would accurately inform one about how immigration affects wages in a country.

If they are so good for the economy, why are our schools, streets, neighborhoods, laws...falling apart. Can you see that in a report?

How is immigration causing economic damage to a country? Yes we can see a lot from the research of experts who spend their lives actually researching and looking at these issues as objectivity as one can.

[_Markk]

You can make numbers read anyway you like in a large economy,

LOL That sounds a lot like apologia. Hey people can make numbers up so we should ignore all numbers.

yet you can objectively take a tour of LA and alike and see it is turning into a poop hole. Especially if you lived here for 60 years and have watched it crumble.

Poop hole is a very subjective term. Certainly we can see how areas change over time, although accurately knowing what factors are responsible is not so easy. I have no idea how going on a tour or living in in an area would accurately inform one about how immigration affects wages in a country.

If they are so good for the economy, why are our schools, streets, neighborhoods, laws...falling apart. Can you see that in a report?

How is immigration causing economic damage to a country? Yes we can see a lot from the research of experts who spend their lives actually researching and looking at these issues as objectivity as one can.

Do you have a link for the assertion you and EA are making?

[_Kevin Graham]

Do you have a link for the assertion you and EAllusion are making?

The assertion was "Immigrants actually raise wages for all but those who lack a high school degree, and the effect even there is relatively modest."

Here you go:

Some evidence indicates that immigrants do have negative wage effects for those native born Americans without a high school diploma. For these individuals, immigration caused a 1.1 percent drop in yearly wages .43 The same study found, however, that for most other workers, immigrants complement, rather than substitute for, the efforts of American workers. Researchers found that “90 percent of native born workers with at least a high-school diploma experienced wage gains from immigration ranging from 0.7 percent to 3.4 percent, depending on education.”

And from The New York Times:

"Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent. The impact on everyone else, though, is surprisingly positive. Giovanni Peri, an economist at the University of California, Davis, has written a series of influential papers comparing the labor markets in states with high immigration levels to those with low ones."

So yes, your anecdotal evidence is worthless.

[_Themis]

Do you have a link for the assertion you and EAllusion are making?

Why? EA has provided you with some references about immigration and economics but you seem to want to believe they will be making it up if it doesn't agree with what you believe. I got involved in this issue to try and see why you think this way. This is why I am asking how you think immigration is damaging the economy or wages in general. I find it silly someone would argue their very limited POV would be more accurate them someone who is an expert on an issue and has spent countless hours researching and testing hypothesis to understand how it works. But then I do see a fair amount of it from people I know. The main correlation I see is a lack of scientific understanding.

[_Kevin Graham]

The main correlation I see is a lack of scientific understanding.

Or an absolute contempt for it. A common trait among Republican thinkers. They hate science and education. They worship at the altar of talk radio.

[_Markk]

Do you have a link for the assertion you and EAllusion are making?

Why? EAllusion has provided you with some references about immigration and economics but you seem to want to believe they will be making it up if it doesn't agree with what you believe. I got involved in this issue to try and see why you think this way. This is why I am asking how you think immigration is damaging the economy or wages in general. I find it silly someone would argue their very limited POV would be more accurate them someone who is an expert on an issue and has spent countless hours researching and testing hypothesis to understand how it works. But then I do see a fair amount of it from people I know. The main correlation I see is a lack of scientific understanding.

Can you show me these references that EA gave me? Kevin just gave me a link which I will look at...but I must have missed the links that EA gave me?

My point to you is that you jumped on EA band wagon without even knowing what these references are, just a general statement by him.

You seem to believe there are not studies that show wages are effected. I know in construction they are effected big time, and illegals/green carded have taken over residential construction, and in certain county's, such as LA have taken over non union commercial construction. Like I wrote earlier, we have around an average of 150 workers or so...we have set wages for each trade (very low), There is very little room for raises or growth, when they learn and want more money they either stay, or move on...most come back in that we have work for them everyday, while if they want more money they might not have consistent work. If we were to give them raises, or costs would rise,and our bidding would be higher, and we would get less contracts. I guarantee yo this type of scenario is not in your studies...the same with factory workers...there is always someone to take their place at a low wage...if they pay more, it transfers to higher cost transferred to the product and makes the company less competitive in a very competitive market.

If it is a union company then it throws their argument out the window in that it is by collective bargaining. And wages are lower...and example.

Fire Sprinkler contractors used to be one of the highest paid trades...they had a very strong union. The work is very easy however and just about anyone can learn the trade easily. Non-union companies with low wage workers, many immigrants, here in so ca started opening shops, and they were getting all the jobs, and the union shops were closing and the union had to lower wages by agreement...and wages are lower than they were, actually a lot lower. One of my projects I am working on, the owner hired his own fire sprinkler sub in that our price was more than twice the amount. Their foreman could barely speak English, their workers could not. I can guarantee these guys made 12 or 15 bucks an hour. The foreman, and this is a true story, had to put his truck in gear by getting under his truck and pulling the linkage in that the linkage to the shiftier was broken.


The same with other trades like plumbing and electrical. Union shops are far and in between, good luck finding a union carpenter shop for small to mediums projects. I joined the carpenters union in the late 70's early 80's in that I could make more money, journeyman wages for commercial were over 20 dollars and hour, plus benefits, which was good back then...today we pay our carpenters and average of maybe 18 or so...our highest paid carpenter might be 28 an hour for running work, without real benefits. Unless it is government funded... then they all make the same by certified payroll and the studies point is mute.

This does not even touch on those that work for cash, which is very real.

None of this will be found in these reports is my guess.

[_Markk]

Do you have a link for the assertion you and EAllusion are making?

The assertion was "Immigrants actually raise wages for all but those who lack a high school degree, and the effect even there is relatively modest."

Here you go:

Some evidence indicates that immigrants do have negative wage effects for those native born Americans without a high school diploma. For these individuals, immigration caused a 1.1 percent drop in yearly wages .43 The same study found, however, that for most other workers, immigrants complement, rather than substitute for, the efforts of American workers. Researchers found that “90 percent of native born workers with at least a high-school diploma experienced wage gains from immigration ranging from 0.7 percent to 3.4 percent, depending on education.”

And from The New York Times:

"Labor economists have concluded that undocumented workers have lowered the wages of U.S. adults without a high-school diploma — 25 million of them — by anywhere between 0.4 to 7.4 percent. The impact on everyone else, though, is surprisingly positive. Giovanni Peri, an economist at the University of California, Davis, has written a series of influential papers comparing the labor markets in states with high immigration levels to those with low ones."

So yes, your anecdotal evidence is worthless.

Can you give me the whole link with end notes