Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_Xenophon]

Someone else chimes in with this Socratic illustration, but it has more thought experiments to illustrate the same point, so you know, more 'splodey.

I can't believe that you think all immigrants are tools and no better than beasts of burden, for shame . That was a nice experiment though.

Ajax,

The key thing to note in EA's comment is this -" If productivity gains from A.I. doesn't free up people to do other work because those jobs are also (my emphasis) being done by machines, that could be a problem." ...snip...

Well said, Honor. One part that has always bothered me by this is that it is typically voices of the right that decry immigration (at least as of late) but also claim to be proponents of free market capitalism. Strong immigration and the ability of a company to higher whomever they want seems closer to that free market ideal than restricting the labor force.

[_honorentheos]

If you are looking at government intervention into the free exchange of goods and services to help people who have little skills maintain a standard of living you find minimally acceptable, why address this through an interventionist immigration policy that is otherwise harmful instead of all the other ways you can manipulate the economic exchanges for redistributionist effects such as an earned income tax credit?

As I noted above to Cam, I personally think government intervention is necessary for capital to move in the economy at levels that create the benefits we've been talking about. It's more intuitive than something I've seen demonstrated in models. So, I guess it's a bias of mine. But that's my sense of why overall we're seeing wealth accrue disproportionately to the most wealthy few even as the effect of both automation and cheaper immigrant labor have positive effects on real wages in the US.

[_honorentheos]

Strong immigration and the ability of a company to hire whomever they want seems closer to that free market ideal than restricting the labor force.

Absolutely agree. It's what I thought of when reading Analytics' comment about changing culture in the US being more significant than finding the best economic policies. There's a "worst of both worlds" aspect to the way the masses of US conservatives think about the economy that Trump has become the perfect manifestation of in politics. And it seems to be about as bad in reality as it seemed to be hypothetically.

[_EAllusion]

If you are looking at government intervention into the free exchange of goods and services to help people who have little skills maintain a standard of living you find minimally acceptable, why address this through an interventionist immigration policy that is otherwise harmful instead of all the other ways you can manipulate the economic exchanges for redistributionist effects such as an earned income tax credit?

As I noted above to Cam, I personally think government intervention is necessary for capital to move in the economy at levels that create the benefits we've been talking about. It's more intuitive than something I've seen demonstrated in models. So, I guess it's a bias of mine. But that's my sense of why overall we're seeing wealth accrue disproportionately to the most wealthy few even as the effect of both automation and cheaper immigrant labor have positive effects on real wages in the US.

When it comes to Ajax, I've pointed out before that immigration policy seems to be the sole area in which he expresses concern for the plight of the low-skilled underclass and demands regulation of the free market to improve their situation. Normally he is describing them as lazy moochers who deserve their lot in life and any intervention to assist them a moral abomination. That's because his reasoning is a bad faith excuse for xenophobia. Doc on the the hand has a history of supporting socialists who share a similar skeptical eye towards immigration to protect the native worker, so we can address that idea in good faith. My point is that there are much better ways to go about meddling in the economy if we are trying to create a economic safety net for those whose skills aren't competitive enough to retain a certain standard of living. Artificially restricting the labor supply and hurting most people, both natives and immigrants, in the process is just a very poor way to address this problem.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

My real argument is that there needs to be disincentives for hording wealth to maintain the benefits of automation and immigrant labor.

What would propose to companies and individuals that are sitting on billions to loosen up their grip on their accumulated wealth? I tend to believe you're not suggesting increasing tax rates in order to redistribute wealth to the lower classes?

- Doc

[_honorentheos]

I tend to believe you're not suggesting increasing tax rates in order to redistribute wealth to the lower classes?

- Doc

Why would you say that?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Strong immigration and the ability of a company to higher whomever they want seems closer to that free market ideal than restricting the labor force.

Who is arguing against "strong immigration?" I'm arguing against unmitigated immigration for reasons I've already stated. I take it those that disagree with me on this point believe that homelessness and poverty, which are skyrocketing right now, isn't related to the introduction of millions of low-skill immigrants, but due to personal choice?

- Doc

[_Markk]

e]

Maybe try asking Markk if his wages would buy more or less if the United States was just 100 people.

My wages, which would probably be Buffalo robes and bushels of corn, and they would probably buy be Texas and Louisiana.

Your question is ridiculous. You have yet to show how people with a high school diploma or higher make more money becasue of low skilled immigrants...which was you assertion. I gave you examples, like unions, and flooding the market with lower priced labor as examples of why it is BS. You have offered nothing but theory that did not consider all variables and data.

Asked you if you work for the government, and you declined to answer, or I missed it. There are like 20 million plus government workers in the US...and i assume all most all have HS diplomas...give me some examples in your own word, given you claim to understand what you link, how illegals help these workers have higher wages across the board...I'll concede ICE and those that may deal directly with immigration supply and demand influx. Keep in mind the other links that were provided that insist wages across the board are declining and that the $20.00 and hour job is no more.

Google is amazing, you can find a link to prove anything you like.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/20 ... /96493348/

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/ ... 84204.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/201 ... aries.html

https://www.cornerstone.edu/blogs/lifel ... hool-grads

https://seekingalpha.com/article/412218 ... n-continue

I can go on and on with these types of studies, theories, and opinion EA...which are all over the place. Which is why my assertion is that you just cherry pich crap to fit your opinion.

Ajax wrote something the other day I had to chew on,and he is right in so many ways when he writes that there are statistics, and then there are lies. There is so much BS out there that flies in the face of common sense and reality. There is a saying in construction that anyone with wheel barrow and a shovel thinks they are are a qualified contractor...the same goes for the many hacks on the web...anyone with a computer and an calculator thinks they are a economist.

Just think about how all these study's are formulated, they do google searches and gather information from others that took it from others...and so on and so on...it is nothing more that a huge game of "telephone" in most cases.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I tend to believe you're not suggesting increasing tax rates in order to redistribute wealth to the lower classes?

- Doc

Why would you say that?

Because I quoted the portion of what you posted that leads me to believe that. What would propose to companies and individuals that are sitting on billions to loosen up their grip on their accumulated wealth?

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

EA says he works for a private charitable organization that works to extract resources from the government (and probably a few donors here and there) in order to allocate them for the poor and disabled. While he himself claims to be a devout Wahabbist Jewish Femen Libertarian his work increases the demand for socialist government allocation of resources so the poor and disabled who totally take advantage of that sweet, sweet money unmitigated immigration provides them, gets even more from the government.

Makes total sense to me.

- Doc