Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

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_Hawkeye
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Hawkeye »

Markk wrote:I am asking you to simply state how your wages are higher becasue of immigration...I showed you how in construction that is false...we can go through other jobs and professions and jobs, and you can show me how their wage are higher.


The fact that you keep asking this question only goes to prove the point that you're either 1) unable to understand the difference between real and nominal wages, both of which have been explained in detail or 2) you're being willfully ignorant; probably to avoid facing up to having been proved wrong.

You ask for explanations. Explanations are provided. You then mock them for explaining.

You also ask for references. References are provided. You then mock them for using Google.

Are you trolling, or is this just your typical modus operandi?
_Hawkeye
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Hawkeye »

What's Holding Back the Housing Market? Not Enough Construction Workers

The drumbeat of hammers echoes most mornings through suburban Denver, where Jay Small, the owner of company that frames houses, is building about 1,300 new homes this year.

That’s more than triple what he built a few years ago, when “you couldn’t buy a job” in the residential construction industry, he said.

Now, builders can’t buy enough workers to get the job done.

Eight years after the housing bust drove an estimated 30% of construction workers into new fields, homebuilders across the country are struggling to find workers at all levels of experience, according to the National Association of Homebuilders. The association estimates that there are approximately 200,000 unfilled construction jobs in the U.S. – a jump of 81% in the last two years.

The ratio of construction job openings to hiring, as measured by the Department of Labor, is at its highest level since 2007.

“The labor shortage is getting worse as demand is getting stronger,” said John Courson, chief executive of the Home Builders Institute, a national nonprofit that trains workers in the construction field.

The impact is two-fold. Without enough workers, residential construction is trailing demand for homes, dampening the overall economy.

And with labor costs rising, homebuilders are building more expensive homes to maintain their margins, which means they are abandoning the starter home market. That has left entry-level homes in tight supply, shutting out may would-be buyers at a time when mortgage rates are near historic lows.

Nationwide, there are 17% fewer people working in construction than at the market peak, with some states – including Arizona, California, Georgia and Missouri – seeing declines of 20% or more, according to data from the Associated General Contractors of America.

The labor shortage is raising builders’ costs – and workers’ wages – and slowing down construction.

Small, the Denver builder, estimates that he could construct at least 10% more homes this year if he had enough workers. But he remains short-staffed, despite raising pay to levels above what he paid during the housing bubble a decade ago.

“It’s getting to the point where you’re really limited in what you can deliver,” Small said. “We lost so many people in the crash, and we’re just not getting them back.”

HIGHER COSTS

The average construction cost of building a single family home is 13.7% higher now than in 2007, even as the total costs of building and selling a house – a figure that includes such items as land costs, financing and marketing – are up just 2.9% over the same period, according to a survey by the National Association of Homebuilders.

The problem is accentuated by strong demand for newly constructed homes, with sales reaching a nine-year high in July.

Private companies say that they are having a hard time attracting workers, and they are often forced to give employees on-the-spot raises to prevent them from going to competitors. Carpenters and electricians are often listed as the most in-demand specialties.

Tony Rader, the vice president of Schwob Building Company, a general contractor in the Dallas area, said his company has started handing out flyers at sporting events, churches and schools in hopes of luring more people into the field.

The biggest problem I face every day is where are we going to find the people to do the work,” he said, adding that it’s becoming increasingly common for his company and others to turn down projects.

Dallas contractors are fighting over the limited supply of workers as three major mixed-use projects are going up right next to each other on the so-called “$5 billion mile” in Frisco, a northern suburb. Meanwhile, the metropolitan area is adding about 30,000 newly built homes annually.

With fewer workers, contractors are becoming wary of signing new work contracts, especially as many of them include fines for not completing a job by a designated date.

“I’ve got two lawsuits right now where it may cost us mid-six-figures because there’s not enough labor out there to get it done,” said one contractor in the North Dallas area who declined to be identified.

Lawyers in hot residential markets say that it is becoming increasingly common for construction companies to try to negotiate for more time.

“Subcontractors are having a hard time staffing up,” said Edward Allen, a Denver attorney who said he has seen more lawsuits over project delays in the past two years.


So from this we can safely say that if the 8 million undocumented workers were immediately transported back to their countries of origin, houses would be less plentiful and they'd be more expensive. And this is only one example of how their sudden absence would negatively affect the economy.

Let's say Johnny lives in two different scenarios.

In scenario 1, he lives in an American society without illegal immigration. He makes $30/hr at his warehouse job. He has a wife and three kids to support. His nominal wage allows him to barely afford a mortgage for a newly constructed 4 bed/3 bath 3,000 sqft home listed at $300,000. At 4% interest his monthly mortgage on a typical 30 year loan is roughly $1,430 per month.

In scenario 2, he lives in our current American society making the same wage, but thanks to a large supply of cheap labor he is able to afford the same exact house by paying $260,000. With the same exact loan his monthly mortgage is around $1,200.

So while Johnny makes the same exact wage in each scenario, his purchasing power is much stronger in scenario 2 because he saves $230 per month. After controlling for taxes, that's about a $2 increase in his real wage assuming he works 40 hours per week.

And this is just one example. We could spend literally hours going through the many examples goods and services are much cheaper in a society fraught with cheap labor.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:This is probably as good of a time as any to point out that you favor tying basic benefits to meet a minimum standard of living to submitting to government sterilization. You know, because you care so much about the poor that you are willing to tie the dignity of the social safety net to coerced eugenics. When immigrants are allowed to cross the border for economic opportunity in the DocCam immigration plan, should they too have to submit to your mandatory sterilization in exchange for basic standard of living program? Or is that just narrowly tailored to those who take advantage of in-kind monetary benefits rather than being issued guest worker visas? I'm genuinely unclear on how your "the disadvantaged need to be sterilized " plan works. You know, because you care so much about their dignity.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... 0#p1063570


Wow. Someone get butthurt because I don't care for their free market religion? I think people should note just how manipulative EA is, from reframing narratives, to arguing every point to death in an effort to defeat the other person. Every interaction with him is a contest, a declaration of war that he must win. In intrapersonal dynamics this would be considered extremely abusive where the abuser probably is adept at gaslighting and negging.

It doesn't surprise me, as a sociopath, he chose to go into the line of work he has. Scary stuff...

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Analytics
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Analytics »

Gadianton wrote:Sure Analytics, but they don't necessarily benefit equally; one country might barely benefit, and redistribute wealth in ways that make the gains hollow.

Both parties technically benefit in any number of obvious exploitation/highway robbery examples.

But really that's all a small side issue, because the main point is that conservatives are supposed to trust the market.


(ETA-- In international trade the question becomes when balance of trade is or isn't a problem, but in the surrounding discussion on this thread, the controversy seems to be whether in principle an infusion of cheap labor can benefit the economy)


The way you express this, whether an infusion of cheap labor can benefit the economy, shouldn't be contraversial. If Adam Smith was write about anything, then the answer is not only can cheap labor benefit the economy, it almost certainly does.

As I understand what Markk has been saying here, he sees jobs as being an isolated, scare resource. There are a certain number of jobs out there, and if an immigrant comes in and does a job for less than what an American would do it for, the immigrant effectively stole that job from the American, leaving the American stuck with a less desirable option.

In conrtrast, economists don't think of jobs as scare, isolated things. Rather, they think about them in terms of overall production. If there is an influx of cheap labor, that translates to higher production, which means more and cheaper goods and services for everyone. In this bountiful enviornment where more is being produced for less, resources are free to take advantage of other opportunities.

Of course this is all happening in an enviornment where competitive people are winners and uncompetitive people are losers. If you aren't competitive, you are going to think the system sucks.

All of this is basic free-market economics. According to these principles, anything that stands in the way of people freely negotiating with each other causes prices to go up and production to go down. These barriers of free enterprise that hurt the economy include immigration laws and border walls.

Of course maybe Adam Smith was in fact wrong. There are good arguments that he was. And the morality of the entire system can also be discussed. But it would be really nice if we could have the discussion starting from a basic understanding of how capitalism is supposed to work.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_EAllusion
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _EAllusion »

Analytics wrote:
The way you express this, whether an infusion of cheap labor can benefit the economy, shouldn't be contraversial. If Adam Smith was write about anything, then the answer is not only can cheap labor benefit the economy, it almost certainly does.

As I understand what Markk has been saying here, he sees jobs as being an isolated, scare resource. There are a certain number of jobs out there, and if an immigrant comes in and does a job for less than what an American would do it for, the immigrant effectively stole that job from the American, leaving the American stuck with a less desirable option.


I think it starts out with Markk insisting that immigration has hurt employment. He reasons that real wages, especially in his particular field in his particular area of the country, are stagnant, notes a rise in immigration during the same time, and thinks it self-evident the latter caused the former.

Others point to research showing that immigration has caused wages to rise, except among those without a high-school diploma (and prior immigrants) with an overall smallish effect. Markk thinks that research is bogus and that anyone can find anyone lying with statistics. He thinks that doesn't even in principle make sense and demands to know how that could be so. He's very narrowly focused on the idea that more competition from people willing to accept less money means downward pressure on wages.

So you then get explanations about how this in principle works or why the empirical data can look the way it does. It doesn't help that there's some slipping in-between those two points, but that appears to be the gist of it.
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

Hawkeye wrote:
Markk wrote:I am asking you to simply state how your wages are higher becasue of immigration...I showed you how in construction that is false...we can go through other jobs and professions and jobs, and you can show me how their wage are higher.


The fact that you keep asking this question only goes to prove the point that you're either 1) unable to understand the difference between real and nominal wages, both of which have been explained in detail or 2) you're being willfully ignorant; probably to avoid facing up to having been proved wrong.

You ask for explanations. Explanations are provided. You then mock them for explaining.

You also ask for references. References are provided. You then mock them for using Google.

Are you trolling, or is this just your typical modus operandi?


They wern't offered, the question was changed. Point me to where he answered my question in strict regard to wages? He has moved the goal post. Yet I have given real comparisons to wages.

What do you do for a living? How has illegal immigration made your wages rise, and if this immigration stopped...why would your wages go down?

I am asking him to discuss real time how immigration effect his job...he can tell me that without google...and when I speak of google it is in context of you can find support for just about any argument, on both sides. You have simply chosen to stand on one side of the argument and use only data that supports your view only.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Analytics
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Analytics »

Markk wrote:[Answers to my question] wern't offered, the question was changed.


The question was changed because you were asking the wrong question. The correct question is how has the purchasing power of your wages changed because of immigration?
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

Analytics wrote:
Markk wrote:[Answers to my question] wern't offered, the question was changed.


The question was changed because you were asking the wrong question. The correct question is how has the purchasing power of your wages changed because of immigration?


BULL...it was directly in regards to wages. And I did not ask the a question, I disputed a very clear assertion. He even qualified his assertion by stating the opposite; that if immigration stopped, wages would depress.

Doc is so right about EA, and apparently now his clones, he starts a debate then when shown he can't defend it, changes the argument.

That said...how has buying power increased since immigration from Mexico increased? Start from say around 1960.

Note...I stated that many trade wages on private projects, are pretty much the same that they were 20 years ago...if adjusted for inflation, how has buying power increased? The same could be said about manufacturing and warehouse work...along with non union truck driving. Even some unions have re-negotiate agreements, I used the Fire Sprinkler union wages as an example.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Markk,

THREE QUESTIONS.

The clones do bring up an interesting point. 1) Are developers lacking hammer swingers because today's construction types are specialized or need some sort of certification to work on site? If that's the case, I can't imagine too many undocumented types having those requisite skill sets.

Also, 2) do you think people who are homeless would be interested in construction, but don't get into it because it's not as simple as showing up and laboring? 3) What would it take to get those people living in tents onto a job site and working?

I ask because there's some relevancy here in SLC and I might be able to pass on some suggestions to the Department of Labor Workforce Services through some connections I've developed.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Markk,

THREE QUESTIONS.

The clones do bring up an interesting point. 1) Are developers lacking hammer swingers because today's construction types are specialized or need some sort of certification to work on site? If that's the case, I can't imagine too many undocumented types having those requisite skill sets.

Also, 2) do you think people who are homeless would be interested in construction, but don't get into it because it's not as simple as showing up and laboring? 3) What would it take to get those people living in tents onto a job site and working?

I ask because there's some relevancy here in Salt Lake City and I might be able to pass on some suggestions to the Department of Labor Workforce Services through some connections I've developed.

- Doc


The homeless for the every most part are drug attics, disabled, or mentally imbalanced. I really think know people do just not understand the issue. I think I will be out in LA tomorrow, I may make you a U-tube video to explain.

They just cleared out a homeless camp of around 700 hundred in OC a few weeks ago and found 14k dirty needles...these folks steal, whore, pimp, sell drugs for a living, they do not work. Or they get around 500 a month (that is what it was about 4 years ago or so when I was feeding these folks) on permanent disability and can't work.

The quality of work today is crap, and it is tough to find decent help...but we just grind through it. There are some very skilled illegals...but few and far between, and they cannot communicate (read plans and spec's) so that is a challenge...often they do a really good job but the wrong attended scope, do to miscommunication...supervision is a key.

Carpenter are a dime a dozen these days, and for a native to break in is impossible for several reason...bigotry one. There is a real discrimination issue in residential framing.

Have your friends go to LA and start walking around on 5th and San Pedro and they can see what is coming.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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