Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

[_subgenius]

Bruh, correlation is not causation....but facts and understanding of simple economic principles would likely help your posts on this topic.

Correlation doesn't equal causation, but that isn't my argument. Markk's assertion is that diminished wages correspond specifically to the boom of illegal immigration, but that is obviously not true. He can't even get the basics of his premise correct. You should try to keep up.

the same applies to both of you, you can't refute his anecdotal claim with your own anecdotal claim.

[Guest]

Upon re-reading some of the posts here, I think Mark is looking for an example of cheap labor entering a particular field, and then wages in the field going up - in his field , carpentry, they went down. Am I right about that mark?

After I hire mark to put in a staircase, I'm out of cash and can't get a social worker. If I hire a illegal, now I have money to hire EAllusion, and his wages have gone up. Does mark dispute that wages in OTHER Fields increase when cheap carpenters are available?

Yes, and I said some wages go up and others down...I wrote each job or profession should be reviewed.

That said manufacturing and warehouse...have gone down...and that is huge along with construction and transportation (delivery).

We also need to look at it is much more than carpentry now...supervision and foreman types are now immigrants that will work for less money and bennie’s. It is simply getting worse and soon to be in your neighborhoods. As Ca goes, so does the country.

Markk,

The Libertaretards are doing a terrible job at explaining themselves. I'll do their job for them.

Money - Fire

Immigrants - Accelerants

Your job - Combustibles

America - The Campground

You had a nice little fire going. You crafted a fine little campfire, responsibly taking deadwood, just a bit, to warm yourself and your guests at the campground.

Libertaretards are like, "HEYREEHURR DURR. IF YOIU POUR MURR GASS ON DER FIRE EVERYONE GETS WERM DUZ DA FIRE GET BIG MORE BIG HURR DURR."

So, you're like, "No, man. Don't do that. We have a fire pit, a fire going, and if you want to be responsible with the campground rules you only take a bit and it makes a nice fire. Here. It's safe right now. I'm good. Maybe we should build more campfire spots so we can grow the campsite responsibly."

Libertaretards are like, "FURGH HER DUURP HERE'S DA GAAAAAAS! MORE FURE HURR DUURRR!" They procede to back a tanker up to your campfire, open up the valves, and it burns like a mother effer. "WE HAVE BIG FIRERS EVERBODIES WARM HURRRRRRR!"

The campsite is now a complete and utter crap hole, burned to a crisp.

So, you're like, "You shouldn't have done that. We need to rebuild the campsite, regrow the forest, and approach this thing with common sense. Man, I'm upset right now."

Libertaretards are like, "HUUUR DURR! WE NEED MORE GAS! LET'S KEEP EVERYONE WUURM!!!! HUUUUUUUURURRR!!"

So. That's where you're at right now trying to reason with them.

Good luck with that, man.

- Doc

[_Hawkeye]

the same applies to both of you, you can't refute his anecdotal claim with your own anecdotal claim.

His anecdotal claim was already refuted 10 pages ago by several peer-reviewed studies which he has refuses to address, probably because he doesn't want to see how his entire worldview has been based on faulty assumptions. Or maybe he's just unable to grasp the significance of those studies. In any event, he's chosen to rely on a very dumb, simplistic "I know the real world better than you because I see Spanish billboards" argument.

Since he refuses to address the refutation from the listed studies, I've tried to get into his thick skull by pointing out his faulty premise. He can keep repeating himself until he is blue in the face, but nothing will make his statement true. Overall nominal wage decreases do not correspond to massive "flooding" of illegal immigrants.

[_Hawkeye]

That said manufacturing and warehouse...have gone down...and that is huge along with construction and transportation (delivery).

Hmmm, the kinds of jobs those without a High School diploma would seek. Do you remember what was said about that towards the beginning?

If carpentry is your business, then you need to adapt to what consumers are demanding. Because that is a weakening industry given that hardwoods, laminate, vinyl and tile are all the rage in new construction and remodeling these days.

[_canpakes]

Money - Fire

Immigrants - Accelerants

Your job - Combustibles

America - The Campground

<snip> ...you're like, "You shouldn't have done that. We need to rebuild the campsite, regrow the forest, and approach this thing with common sense. Man, I'm upset right now."<snip>

Unfortunately, what a lot of those upset campfire builders don't want to acknowledge is that they were the ones to start throwing accelerants on to their own fires.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Unfortunately, what a lot of those upset campfire builders don't want to acknowledge is that they were the ones to start throwing accelerants on to their own fires.

Uh oh. I think this metaphor is burning out of control!

- Doc

[_Markk]

That said manufacturing and warehouse...have gone down...and that is huge along with construction and transportation (delivery).

Hmmm, the kinds of jobs those without a High School diploma would seek. Do you remember what was said about that towards the beginning?

If carpentry is your business, then you need to adapt to what consumers are demanding. Because that is a weakening industry given that hardwoods, laminate, vinyl and tile are all the rage in new construction and remodeling these days.

LOL...

Building is what I do. I manage contracts, consultants and subcontracts and subcontractors in mostly historic restoration...typically very large projects. Carpentry is one of many trades effected. I used carpentry as an example in that I am a carpenter by trade, even though I have not physically worked in over 20 years or so on a project, unless for fun. If you actually believe that tile setters and carpet layers are not immigrants, and some how better paid than carpenters, then you are very naïve.

Also, before the finishes you described go in, carpenter have create the core and shell, and the finish carpenter install such things as doors and windows...you simply have absolutely no idea what you are talking about on this one.

Illegal/green card immigrants have taken over almost every trade in So Ca. on private projects...with few exceptions such a elevators, or high tech smart systems and motor control.

Are you asserting workers in manufacturing are all high school dropouts? or warehouse? How about truck drivers?

What do you do for a living?

[_Markk]

that's funny...

So. That's where you're at right now trying to reason with them.

Good luck with that, man.

- Doc

I live in CA...and work in LA. I have to deal with these folks all the time. This forum is nothing.

Every once and a while I mess with them and they do not know how to react... they just have melt downs, call me names, then get in their Prius, with a coexist sticker on it and skedaddle.

I was given camouflage ball cap that reads "drain the swamp" as a joke. I typically only wear it around the house as a work hat. I take my dog to a dog park by the University Of Redlands almost every day, and talk with the dog people, nice enough folks. One day I forgot I had the hat on and wore it to the park and you would've thought I crap my pants with the scowls I got...it was classic and funny...they probably hate my dog now too...especially because I named him after a John Wayne character....Rooster J. Cogburn.

Gotta love it though. What amazes me is how out of touch some of these folks are with what is going on in our world.

I will get burned out and leave the trailer park for a while, I always do. I am making cabinets for my kitchen, so I will bow out soon to work on my kitchen more, but right now I am enjoying the conversations.

[_Gadianton]

[quote=Mark"]Yes, and I said some wages go up and others down...I wrote each job or profession should be reviewed.
[/quote]

In the basic market model, if cheap labor enters then wages go down, no real need to review. We would never expect wages to go up. the idea is that the displaced resources reallocate elsewhere, and create goods and services that the economy previously did not have. These guys are basically saying: you've got a carpenter and electrician living in tents because they're spending all day gathering berries and hunting rabbits just to survive. Now suppose an illegal immigrant comes along and displaces the carpenter's berry-gathering gig. The berry wage falls drastically -- the electrician looks over those two baskets of berries, and isn't willing to trade a full rabbit. He'll let the two berry gatherers compete and the illegal is fine with a half-rabbit. So long, carpenter! But now that the carpenter can't compete in the berry market, he picks up a saw and starts building houses. Just need another illegal to come buy to hunt rabbits so the electrician can get some lights on.

It's really hard to argue with the classical model in its most basic thought experiments, but when you've got billions of people, multiple nations, currencies, governments, externalities, market frictions and ten other things, then does it really work out that way?

That said manufacturing and warehouse...have gone down...and that is huge along with construction and transportation (delivery).

This is where the laundry list of others things matters. This is where empirical research comes into play, and there's been lots of discussions in this thread on various studies.

Many years ago I saw a H channel documentary on railroads and the "brakeman". This was a high paying, high risk job that put a lot of people to work, and when the steam brake came a long, a lot of jobs were lost. Should we have said "no" to the steam brake because of the hard working americans who would lose jobs? Obviously not, right? certainly, the wages for steam engineers went up. Certainly, the economy as a whole was better off even if many of those brakemen never got another comparable gig.

Now, let's look at the other extreme and open the borders all the way, and allow in a virtually inexhaustible cheap supply of labor in. Let's outsource the bulk of our middle class jobs overseas. Does our faith waver a little and we think about these other factors offsetting the benefits? I know mine does.

[_Markk]

BULL...it was directly in regards to wages. And I did not ask the a question, I disputed a very clear assertion. He even qualified his assertion by stating the opposite; that if immigration stopped, wages would depress.

With regards to real wages, the question has been answered over and over again. With regards to nominal wages, that is the wrong question.

That said...how has buying power increased since immigration from Mexico increased? Start from say around 1960.

From 1960 to today, the annual GDP per capita has increased from $17,221 to $52,587(both figures in inflation-adjusted 2009 dollars).

In 1960 the average factory worker made 2.57 ( I could not find LA alone)...IN LA today the average factory job pays 11.54.

2.57 today adjusted is 20.37 and hour (google a inflation calculator)...how is that more buying power or higher wages?

https://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/1960-61.pdf
https://www.indeed.com/salaries/Factory ... California
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Jo ... Angeles-CA
https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Jo ... Angeles-CA