You don't need Jesus

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Shulem wrote:Res Ipsa,

Your last statement was well thought out and certainly valid from different points of view.

I have an interest in persuading anyone I can to give up Jesus and start living on their own merits and stand on their own feet without relying on an imaginary friend to rescue them from their sins. Mormons and Christians spend a lot of effort in spreading their so-called gospel and proselytizing the world in trying to get people to accept an imaginary Jesus. That's a fact. I reserve the right to do just the opposite and try and get people to give up the cult and recognize that murder and blood is what their religion was ultimately founded on. You know that Moses threw many a stone and many people suffered at his hands. He was a tyrant and an evil man. He was Jehovah's representative on earth - the head of the cult. Then came Jesus who tried to outdo Moses just like the Mormons came along to try and outdo the Reformation and Catholicism.

I really want Jersey Girl to give up Jesus. I hope she does, someday. I don't pray that she does because I don't pray to imaginary people but I do hope.


I guess what I’m missing is why it’s important to you that Jersey Girl give up Jesus. Yes, it’s true that Mormons and Christians proselytize. Does Jersey Girl? Not that I’ve seen. If she does, the way she does it is by the way she lives her life. So why not reciprocate. Show her it’s possible to be happy without Jesus, not by mocking and denigrating stuff that is important to her, but by showing her how a happy atheist lives his life.

I’m not interested in being a counter missionary, but if I were, I wouldn’t do anything differently than I am now. I can’t tell you how many Christian friends and acquaintances have been shocked to learn that I’m an atheist. I get a kick out of it, especially when they try and argue that I couldn’t really be an atheist.

When you approach Mormons or Christians this way, do you think anyone watching thinks “Now there’s a happy and fulfilled atheist. I want to be like him!”
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

Jersey Girl wrote:Really. Do you want me to collect up all that you've actually been saying on this thread?

That won't be necessary. What I have written is what I have written and it's already documented. You are welcome to read it or not. You can comment all you like.

I really want you to give up your imaginary friend and learn to live life on your own merits, Jersey Girl. It will be a whole new experience for you? Just think what it's like to forgive yourself and others all by yourself without the aid of your imaginary friend. It will be a bloody revelation. Just think what it will be like to just be yourself and to take no consideration what your imaginary friend thinks of you. You have some growing to do, Jersey Girl. You're going to love being yourself for yourself sake.

I know you can do it.

:smile:
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:Sure, that's me exactly. A murderous, hate filled, very bad man.

You can tell by all the hate filled posts filled with anger and condemnation I publish all over the board.

Oh wait... :rolleyes:


Well, Moses commands you to pick up stones and kill gays. I trust you will comply with the law. (Hint, you're living in Moses' time)

Murderer.
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

Jersey Girl,

If you will confess with your mouth that you can forgive yourself for your own sake without the aid of an imaginary friend then I will gladly give you this rose as a token of my affection and good will towards your pursuit to freedom from religion.


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_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF,

If you will covenant that you will not obey Moses and reject Jehovah's decree to stone gays then you may go free. Otherwise, get in the cell because you're guilty of murder.


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_JLHPROF
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _JLHPROF »

Shulem wrote:JLHPROF,

If you will covenant that you will not obey Moses and reject Jehovah's decree to stone gays then you may go free. Otherwise, get in the cell because you're guilty of murder.


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Questions:

1. Do you believe Jehovah (God etc) actually exist?
2. If you don't, then do you believe Moses and the early Jews made up the laws and penalties against homosexuality of their own accord?

I think we both know you don't believe he actually exists and therefore the decree would be considered to be man made, and can be easily rejected.

If you believe that God actually exists and it turns out he really does condemn homosexuality then what purpose would there be in rejecting the decree?

I don't think you can reasonably argue that we should disobey a real God and his real rules, and expect success. Rejection of those rules would have to be based on the assumption that the rules are not from God but the work of man. So rather than arguing that Jehovah is evil for his law, perhaps you should attempt to show that that law didn't come from any God. It would be much more effective.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF,

Moses was a political opportunist and a religious despot. His imaginary god (Jehovah) was nothing more than a front to establish the laws of Moses with pretended backing from an imaginary god. It was all about controlling the masses and establishing a religious order of control. The fact that Moses ordered the execution of homosexuals is proof that Moses had no love for those who practice their sexual orientation but simply had them killed. The law and punishment towards gays was based on hatred and prejudice. It had absolutely nothing to do with love or the love being expressed by an imaginary god of love. Hence, the imaginary god was one of hatred and murderous discontent towards anyone who opposed it. Moses proclaimed Jehovah as being jealous, a man of war, and one who would execute anyone who blasphemed his name.

JLHPROF, knowing what you know now and having a modern understanding of sexual orientation there is no reason for you to support Moses, his law of executing gays, and his claims to do so under the direct revelation of an imaginary god. Moses and Jehovah may be safely rejected and the principles of love and freedom should reign supreme.

I want you to condemn Moses for his murderous ways. Can you do that? Will you do that?
_JLHPROF
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _JLHPROF »

Shulem wrote:JLHPROF,

Moses was a political opportunist and a religious despot. His imaginary god (Jehovah) was nothing more than a front to establish the laws of Moses with pretended backing from an imaginary god. It was all about controlling the masses and establishing a religious order of control. The fact that Moses ordered the execution of homosexuals is proof that Moses had no love for those who practice their sexual orientation but simply had them killed. The law and punishment towards gays was based on hatred and prejudice. It had absolutely nothing to do with love or the love being expressed by an imaginary god of love. Hence, the imaginary god was one of hatred and murderous discontent towards anyone who opposed it. Moses proclaimed Jehovah as being jealous, a man of war, and one who would execute anyone who blasphemed his name.

JLHPROF, knowing what you know now and having a modern understanding of sexual orientation there is no reason for you to support Moses, his law of executing gays, and his claims to do so under the direct revelation of an imaginary god. Moses and Jehovah may be safely rejected and the principles of love and freedom should reign supreme.

I want you to condemn Moses for his murderous ways. Can you do that? Will you do that?


No, I won't. And I think your presentism is showing.

I mean, why wouldn't we expect a nomadic hebrew roaming the deserts of the middle east nearly 4000 years ago with thousands of egyptian ex-slaves to respect the rights of the LGBTQ+ community, establish same sex marriage laws, and honor all sexual orientations and gender ideologies.
He was clearly homophobic and should have had a world view much more in keeping with the one that has only emerged in the last 30 years of the world.
It's just crazy that he didn't realize that and get woke. /sarcasm
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_SteelHead
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _SteelHead »

You would have to establish that there actual was "a nomadic hebrew roaming the deserts of the middle east nearly 4000 years ago with thousands of egyptian ex-slaves" for this to be an issue. No evidence of the exodus has ever been found. So it is a MEH.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin
_Shulem
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Re: You don't need Jesus

Post by _Shulem »

JLHPROF wrote:
Shulem wrote:JLHPROF,

Moses was a political opportunist and a religious despot. His imaginary god (Jehovah) was nothing more than a front to establish the laws of Moses with pretended backing from an imaginary god. It was all about controlling the masses and establishing a religious order of control. The fact that Moses ordered the execution of homosexuals is proof that Moses had no love for those who practice their sexual orientation but simply had them killed. The law and punishment towards gays was based on hatred and prejudice. It had absolutely nothing to do with love or the love being expressed by an imaginary god of love. Hence, the imaginary god was one of hatred and murderous discontent towards anyone who opposed it. Moses proclaimed Jehovah as being jealous, a man of war, and one who would execute anyone who blasphemed his name.

JLHPROF, knowing what you know now and having a modern understanding of sexual orientation there is no reason for you to support Moses, his law of executing gays, and his claims to do so under the direct revelation of an imaginary god. Moses and Jehovah may be safely rejected and the principles of love and freedom should reign supreme.

I want you to condemn Moses for his murderous ways. Can you do that? Will you do that?


No, I won't. And I think your presentism is showing.

I mean, why wouldn't we expect a nomadic hebrew roaming the deserts of the middle east nearly 4000 years ago with thousands of egyptian ex-slaves to respect the rights of the LGBTQ+ community, establish same sex marriage laws, and honor all sexual orientations and gender ideologies.
He was clearly homophobic and should have had a world view much more in keeping with the one that has only emerged in the last 30 years of the world.
It's just crazy that he didn't realize that and get woke. /sarcasm


You're unwilling to condemn Moses for his murderous and intolerant ways. Then as far as I'm concerned you are no better than him and a partaker of his crimes. Living in ancient times is no excuse to have hate and intolerance towards other people. Ancient Egyptians and the Greeks had far more tolerance and acceptance towards homosexuality than the Israelites and their bloody prophets ever had. In fact, it's widely believed that some of the highest officials in ancient Egypt were gay including some of the kings. The Greeks were lovers of art and were miles ahead of the Jews when it comes to love and tolerance.

You, JLHPROF, can have your Moses and the blood that is on his hands.
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