DT: Cryonics or Cremation?
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DT: Cryonics or Cremation?
Doubting Thomas,
Like time travel, the idea of personal immortality has some issues with logical consistency, namely in regards to what constitutes personal identity. Are you the same person you were when you were three years old? If your brain dies and gets brought back to life, is it really *you* that pops back out? In a teleportation experiment, as you are beamed up, are you killed, and the output a replica with a new sense of inner life or is it still you? Are you really the same person right now as you were ten minutes ago? If your brain could be scanned with such detail as to reproduce every last causal state perfectly, and then replicated either with an organic 3-d printer or in silicon, what would that mean?
I'm on the skeptical end of the spectrum of belief in a continuing person of myself, and so I don't have much belief in the possibility of a personal immortality, but I do think it's worth thinking through the implications if I'm wrong.
Imagine this, DT, it's the year 2075, a gunman walks into a public place and wreaks havoc, and as the police approach, he kills himself. But the brain can still be activated to a degree and probed for a motive. Why, even with today's technology, A.I. is powerful enough to reverse engineer language from brain scans to a simple degree and by looking at a scan, predict sentences. In the year 2175, the gunman could perhaps be brought back to life, or if not, his brain brought back -- plugged into a virtual reality. There is no need to ask direct questions, only stimulate the brain in such a fashion that it can be decrypted. And in 2275, the VR possibilities along with an anxious judicial system aren't satisfied with answers only, if the subject can be brought into a life-like VR, then it can be punished for its crimes. Imagine actually living through 12 consecutive life sentences because the brain can be maintained pretty well by machines.
If you are brought back by cryonics, whose to say you won't be awakened by the enemy, who wishes to extract what you know or torture you for the sake of your nationality? Think of the #metoo movement. thirty years ago, what was socially tolerated was different than today, but for better or for worse, social media and technology can reach farther back in time than anyone would have suspected and bring misdeeds to the light of day. Imagine the strict standards society can be held to when brain scans are available to investigate. Well, here you are, brought back hundreds of years later, and society is appalled by the thoughts running through your head that are very easy to read now, and at once you are brought to trial for off-color fantasies or shameful political leanings. The punishments can last a very, very long time.
If cryonics can preserve you, then is it possible that those who are died and buried could still be brought back as long as the brain hasn't deteriorated too much? As Sam Harris, Elon Musk, and many positivist futurists believe, A.I. is a real threat to the human species. And the bad thing is that somewhat like the race to the A-bomb, there's the race to the A.I. singularity. It's a prisoner's dilemma. Even though the outcome is probably worse for all of humanity, if we don't win the race, perhaps Russia wins. That could be hell on earth for the living. But imagine if an army of robots can comb graveyards and bring many of the dead back for VR interrogation and perhaps torture or punishment?
Whether it's by cryonics, a not-quite decomposed brain, or by a brain scan that holds enough information to restore you, at a certain technological point, a real hell for all eternity or for at least hundreds or thousands of years is really on the table. The possibility is far greater, I would say, than a future civilization that wishes to bring people back to share resources with them and give them bliss.
So unlike you, even though I believe a continuing self that spans multiple lifetimes is a pipe dream, I could be wrong, and the stakes are very high if I am, and so I am thinking about cremation, just to be sure my brain and my mind can never be recovered and submitted to a future rule of law or punishment at the hands of an enemy.
Like time travel, the idea of personal immortality has some issues with logical consistency, namely in regards to what constitutes personal identity. Are you the same person you were when you were three years old? If your brain dies and gets brought back to life, is it really *you* that pops back out? In a teleportation experiment, as you are beamed up, are you killed, and the output a replica with a new sense of inner life or is it still you? Are you really the same person right now as you were ten minutes ago? If your brain could be scanned with such detail as to reproduce every last causal state perfectly, and then replicated either with an organic 3-d printer or in silicon, what would that mean?
I'm on the skeptical end of the spectrum of belief in a continuing person of myself, and so I don't have much belief in the possibility of a personal immortality, but I do think it's worth thinking through the implications if I'm wrong.
Imagine this, DT, it's the year 2075, a gunman walks into a public place and wreaks havoc, and as the police approach, he kills himself. But the brain can still be activated to a degree and probed for a motive. Why, even with today's technology, A.I. is powerful enough to reverse engineer language from brain scans to a simple degree and by looking at a scan, predict sentences. In the year 2175, the gunman could perhaps be brought back to life, or if not, his brain brought back -- plugged into a virtual reality. There is no need to ask direct questions, only stimulate the brain in such a fashion that it can be decrypted. And in 2275, the VR possibilities along with an anxious judicial system aren't satisfied with answers only, if the subject can be brought into a life-like VR, then it can be punished for its crimes. Imagine actually living through 12 consecutive life sentences because the brain can be maintained pretty well by machines.
If you are brought back by cryonics, whose to say you won't be awakened by the enemy, who wishes to extract what you know or torture you for the sake of your nationality? Think of the #metoo movement. thirty years ago, what was socially tolerated was different than today, but for better or for worse, social media and technology can reach farther back in time than anyone would have suspected and bring misdeeds to the light of day. Imagine the strict standards society can be held to when brain scans are available to investigate. Well, here you are, brought back hundreds of years later, and society is appalled by the thoughts running through your head that are very easy to read now, and at once you are brought to trial for off-color fantasies or shameful political leanings. The punishments can last a very, very long time.
If cryonics can preserve you, then is it possible that those who are died and buried could still be brought back as long as the brain hasn't deteriorated too much? As Sam Harris, Elon Musk, and many positivist futurists believe, A.I. is a real threat to the human species. And the bad thing is that somewhat like the race to the A-bomb, there's the race to the A.I. singularity. It's a prisoner's dilemma. Even though the outcome is probably worse for all of humanity, if we don't win the race, perhaps Russia wins. That could be hell on earth for the living. But imagine if an army of robots can comb graveyards and bring many of the dead back for VR interrogation and perhaps torture or punishment?
Whether it's by cryonics, a not-quite decomposed brain, or by a brain scan that holds enough information to restore you, at a certain technological point, a real hell for all eternity or for at least hundreds or thousands of years is really on the table. The possibility is far greater, I would say, than a future civilization that wishes to bring people back to share resources with them and give them bliss.
So unlike you, even though I believe a continuing self that spans multiple lifetimes is a pipe dream, I could be wrong, and the stakes are very high if I am, and so I am thinking about cremation, just to be sure my brain and my mind can never be recovered and submitted to a future rule of law or punishment at the hands of an enemy.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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Re: DT: Cryonics or Cremation?
Great post, Gadianton. Thanks for taking the time to flesh this out.
I think another very valid criticism of Cryonics or some other brain preservation technique is the social implications it will have in relationship to the wealth gap. Immortality might be possible one day, but apart form the excessively rich well it be in reach for everyone? How much wealth will the 1% be able to further amass when death or old age no longer slow them down? Death is in many ways the only equalizer that exists in this world. How do we handle the moral conundrum of preserving/resurrecting victims of crimes when the tech is there but the costs are high? It seems to me there would be another have vs have not war over said immorality.
As you noted, the concepts of transferring the brain into VR is especially terrifying. You mention punishment in prison but there is also the idea of enhanced interrogations where the suspect has no chance to die or release until the "correct answer" is received that should equally scare us.
The upsides could be immense but I'm a bit skeptical that mankind will overcome the infinite evil that exists in some of these futures.
I think another very valid criticism of Cryonics or some other brain preservation technique is the social implications it will have in relationship to the wealth gap. Immortality might be possible one day, but apart form the excessively rich well it be in reach for everyone? How much wealth will the 1% be able to further amass when death or old age no longer slow them down? Death is in many ways the only equalizer that exists in this world. How do we handle the moral conundrum of preserving/resurrecting victims of crimes when the tech is there but the costs are high? It seems to me there would be another have vs have not war over said immorality.
As you noted, the concepts of transferring the brain into VR is especially terrifying. You mention punishment in prison but there is also the idea of enhanced interrogations where the suspect has no chance to die or release until the "correct answer" is received that should equally scare us.
The upsides could be immense but I'm a bit skeptical that mankind will overcome the infinite evil that exists in some of these futures.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
I accept the arc of life.
Sprout and flower
Fruit and fall
It is enough
It is all
Sprout and flower
Fruit and fall
It is enough
It is all
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
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Re: DT: Cryonics or Cremation?
Gadianton wrote:...(SNIP)... I am thinking about cremation, just to be sure my brain and my mind can never be recovered and submitted to a future rule of law or punishment at the hands of an enemy.
Interesting position indeed. Let us set aside the classic 1993 Snipes and Stallone movie "Demolition Man" and explore this idea of your mind never being recovered.
Let us assume that the earth is primarily a closed system whereas the overwhelming majority of matter remains within arms reach as does the majority of energy (see also escape velocity). With these assumptions in mind it is certainly feasible that a technological future would be capable of a material reassembly of an ever increasing complexity...and the same would be possible of a non-material reassembly. So, if one assumes that our existence as being necessarily tethered to natural laws (eg unable to transcend natural laws) then complex arrangements of matter and energy are inevitably capable of being reassembled or even reproduced. So it seems that even cremation would not be capable of freeing one's self from the possible future of reassembly/reproduction and past due reprimands.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
subgenius wrote:Gadianton wrote:...(SNIP)... I am thinking about cremation, just to be sure my brain and my mind can never be recovered and submitted to a future rule of law or punishment at the hands of an enemy.
Interesting position indeed. Let us set aside the classic 1993 Snipes and Stallone movie "Demolition Man" and explore this idea of your mind never being recovered.
Let us assume that the earth is primarily a closed system whereas the overwhelming majority of matter remains within arms reach as does the majority of energy (see also escape velocity). With these assumptions in mind it is certainly feasible that a technological future would be capable of a material reassembly of an ever increasing complexity...and the same would be possible of a non-material reassembly. So, if one assumes that our existence as being necessarily tethered to natural laws (eg unable to transcend natural laws) then complex arrangements of matter and energy are inevitably capable of being reassembled or even reproduced. So it seems that even cremation would not be capable of freeing one's self from the possible future of reassembly/reproduction and past due reprimands.
Assuming an omniscient blue-print reading, I'm guessing?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
Xenophon wrote: Immortality might be possible one day, but apart form the excessively rich well it be in reach for everyone? How much wealth will the 1% be able to further amass when death or old age no longer slow them down? Death is in many ways the only equalizer that exists in this world.
An interesting new TV series people may be interested in watching from Netflix is called Altered Carbon. It is about this very topic, but be warned it does have violence and nudity.

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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
Gadianton wrote:Doubting Thomas,
Like time travel, the idea of personal immortality has some issues with logical consistency, namely in regards to what constitutes personal identity. Are you the same person you were when you were three years old? If your brain dies and gets brought back to life, is it really *you* that pops back out? In a teleportation experiment, as you are beamed up, are you killed, and the output a replica with a new sense of inner life or is it still you? Are you really the same person right now as you were ten minutes ago? If your brain could be scanned with such detail as to reproduce every last causal state perfectly, and then replicated either with an organic 3-d printer or in silicon, what would that mean?
Interesting questions. There is a lot to think about.
Gadianton wrote:So unlike you, even though I believe a continuing self that spans multiple lifetimes is a pipe dream, I could be wrong, and the stakes are very high if I am, and so I am thinking about cremation, just to be sure my brain and my mind can never be recovered and submitted to a future rule of law or punishment at the hands of an enemy.
I doubt a futuristic society is going to be malevolent. Humanity has the capacity to commit planetary suicide. If humans don't destroy each other with nuclear wars then I think we are going to be just fine.
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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
Xenophon wrote:. Immortality might be possible one day, but apart form the excessively rich well it be in reach for everyone?
Why not?
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Re: DoubtingThomas: Cryonics or Cremation?
Themis wrote: violence and nudity.
no doubt as necessary ingredients for immortality.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
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Re: DT: Cryonics or Cremation?
Xenophon wrote:...(snip)...apart form the excessively rich well it be in reach for everyone?
was not the same sentiment expressed about printed books many many generations ago?
Xenophon wrote:How much wealth will the 1% be able to further amass when death or old age no longer slow them down?
probably not much more, if any at all. You assume that time is a significant limitation for that type of person. I do not witness their aggression in "acquiring" as having to the last second behavior.
Xenophon wrote: Death is in many ways the only equalizer that exists in this world.
that is just something that poor people say.
Xenophon wrote:How do we handle the moral conundrum of preserving/resurrecting victims of crimes when the tech is there but the costs are high?
Ask your local hospital's emergency room.
Xenophon wrote:It seems to me there would be another have vs have not war over said immorality.
maybe...but "have vs have not" is an ongoing struggle both as an individual and society.
Xenophon wrote:As you noted, the concepts of transferring the brain into VR is especially terrifying.
only like an eclipse is terrifying to an Aztec.
Xenophon wrote:You mention punishment in prison but there is also the idea of enhanced interrogations where the suspect has no chance to die or release until the "correct answer" is received that should equally scare us.
"release"? are you suggesting that there are 2 parts to a human?...and if there is something that can be released then how does that necessarily conclude with "vanish" or "no longer"?
Xenophon wrote:The upsides could be immense but I'm a bit skeptical that mankind will overcome the infinite evil that exists in some of these futures.
overcoming "evil" is an illusion and temporary...it is rather like overcoming hunger or sleepiness, is it not?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent