EAllusion wrote:Because it can be hard to wrap one's head around big numbers, it can be hard to grasp just how awful it is for anyone to suffer forever - graham's number x infinity - for literally anything. No matter how heinous the offense, I cannot conceive of a defensible system of justice that would allow for an infinite punishment of a finite offense. Within the world-view of someone who thinks this is a just cause of a system God created for lack of faith, you're looking at something more immoral than the most immoral thing the most immoral person on Earth was able to do. Infinite suffering for lack of faith is far, far worse - infinitely so even - than merely murdering an innocent child.
Hell isn't a punishment God inflicts on people (or, at least, it isn't exclusively that), it's a choice people make to separate themselves from him.
Besides that, if there is no afterlife or resurrection, then murdering a child is an action that lasts for infinity.
I deliberately worded what I wrote to avoid describing hell as entirely punishment. It doesn't matter if it is a punishment or not if it is suffering to be there and God sets up conditions such that people will enter that suffering for lack of faith. Doing so is more monstrous than anything any human being ever has done and you have to abdicate moral judgment to tolerate it as acceptable. This, naturally, precludes describing a such a being as "good" and the word "good" having meaningful content. Christians often rely on God's supposed goodness to underwrite other beliefs, such as God not being a liar, so this is a problem with describing God in ostensibly evil terms.
Murdering a child has permanent consequences, but that doesn't mean it "lasts for infinity" unless by that you mean it has permanent consequences. But it has permanent consequences regardless of whether death itself is permanent or not.
I'm asserting that no act, however heinous, justifies infinite suffering in response.
There is no good reason to believe that the idea of Hell is anything other than an invention by religious charlatans to frighten the gullible into accepting their religious doctrines and providing financial support.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:There is no good reason to believe that the idea of Hell is anything other than an invention by religious charlatans to frighten the gullible into accepting their religious doctrines and providing financial support.
talk about a statement based on "blind faith". the "idea" of Hell is not just religious, it is also permeated throughout folklore - and fear is not an imaginary condition....but nevertheless, your assertion here is likewise unfounded and likewiserelies upon the same sort of weak-minded-ness that you criticize.....the irony of your own choice in shackles is not unnoticed.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
subgenius wrote:the "idea" of Hell is not just religious, it is also permeated throughout folklore - and fear is not an imaginary condition....but nevertheless, your assertion here is likewise unfounded and likewiserelies upon the same sort of weak-minded-ness that you criticize.....the irony of your own choice in shackles is not unnoticed.
Says the guy who believes his underwear protects him from bullets.
Hawkeye wrote:Says the guy who believes his underwear protects him from bullets.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Gunnar wrote:There is no good reason to believe that the idea of Hell is anything other than an invention by religious charlatans to frighten the gullible into accepting their religious doctrines and providing financial support.
talk about a statement based on "blind faith". the "idea" of Hell is not just religious, it is also permeated throughout folklore - and fear is not an imaginary condition....but nevertheless, your assertion here is likewise unfounded and likewiserelies upon the same sort of weak-minded-ness that you criticize.....the irony of your own choice in shackles is not unnoticed.
His assertion suffers from no less proof than your own. But yours relies on a much greater willingness to suspend logic.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 22, 2018 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gunnar wrote:There is no good reason to believe that the idea of Hell is anything other than an invention by religious charlatans to frighten the gullible into accepting their religious doctrines and providing financial support.
canpakes wrote:His assertion suffers from no less proof than your own. But yours relies on much a greater willingness to suspend logic.
Exactly! I can think of no better example of suspending logic than the very idea of hell--especially a hell consisting of endless torment for all eternity. This is a greater evil and cruelty than any human villain has ever managed to accomplish or ever could. There is zero probability that I could ever believe in, much less worship a god who could even consider advocating so horrendous an evil!
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
