What is an anti-Mormon?

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_Niadna
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Niadna »

Shulem wrote:
Niadna wrote:Why are you so intent on converting me to your POV?

It's joyous watching people walk away from the Mormon cult. I want to help you do just that.

Are you contemplating the possibilities? Just what would it take to push you over the edge?

Do tell.

I honestly do not think anything can, short of God Himself coming down and telling me to go somewhere else.

I mean, it's not like I haven't been bombarded with all the arguments and attacks. If none of them have done it, well.....
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_Niadna
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Niadna »

Shulem wrote:
Niadna wrote:You are quite right. I can.

But I can have an even more wonderful life with them. Why are you so intent on converting me to your POV?

You mean you're not already having a more wonderful life with them -- but have faith and hope that you "Can"? How do you know that you won't have a more wonderful life without them without trying?

You mentioned the temple earlier. The temple rites are some of the grossest cult symbols ever devised in modern times. It's crude and barbaric -- blood letting symbolism that is enough to make any sane person cringe. The Mormon endowment is evil stuff.

You're in a cult.

Definition of 'cult."

I think your beliefs are weird and I don't like you.

since, like the dictionary, I try to be more descriptive than prescriptive in defining word usage, I try to find the common element that EVERYBODY means when they use the word, especially when they use it to define what someone ELSE believes.

The above seems to be it.
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_Shulem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Shulem »

Niadna wrote:I honestly do not think anything can, short of God Himself coming down and telling me to go somewhere else.

I mean, it's not like I haven't been bombarded with all the arguments and attacks. If none of them have done it, well.....

I can assure you that your imaginary friend (which you call God) is not going to come down and tell you anything. He's not coming down, period. He's in your imagination and simply a matter of your faith and hope in that you think and believe he's real. But is he? You don't know. You just have faith that he is. As long as you rely upon your imaginary friend you're stuck in a rut and can't move. You have given all control to the church and your imaginary friend which you call god. That is not very empowering at all.
_Lemmie
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Lemmie »

naidna wrote:I think that questioning the actions and motives around the priesthood ban is what got people praying for it to be lifted, and what finally got the revelation that GOT it lifted, is what I think.

I also think that it would be good for people to look a little closer...not at the ban, so much, as at the reaction of most Mormons to the LIFTING of it.


So, instead of evaluating the ban for what is was, you think people should focus on being grateful that those who imposed the ban decided to lift the ban? This sounds disturbingly like a variation on hostage syndrome.
_Shulem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Shulem »

Niadna wrote:I mean, it's not like I haven't been bombarded with all the arguments and attacks. If none of them have done it, well.....

Book of Abraham? Facsimile No. 3? Papyrus?

Hmmmm.
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Niadna wrote:I dunno...I THINK that makes me a TBM.

Fence Sitter wrote:My definition of a TBM is someone who believes in all the words of the prophets. So when you say you do not believe in a God who requires belief in a global flood, or a literal Adam and Eve story or that God resides on Kolob and so on, that means you are not a TBM. You actually fall into the category of being a cafeteria Mormon who picks and choose what to believe.

Since you are fairly new to the board and might not get everyone's posting style, the above is meant to be some irony wrapped up in a bit of sarcasm.

huckelberry wrote:fence sitter, my mother lifelong Mormon of Mormon family , no general authorities but back far enough to have handcarted would agree with Nadnia not your proposed hyper pious trying harder than useful version of tbm.

Hi huckelberry,

This thread was stated by Niadna as an attempt to explain how she "divide(s) non-Mormons into categories. It seems only fair then that others can decide what kind of Mormon category into which she fits, does it not? That you or your mother would disagree with how I define the TBM category is pretty much the same objection we have all been using to object to Niadna's own categories, so your objection to my tongue-in-cheek placing of Niadna in the cafeteria Mormon category, is making my point.

By the way, I guess I know a lot of "hyper pious" Mormons. My father would probably disagree with your mother, in that he firmly believes in global flood, God residing in/on a star and a literal Adam & Eve and he would also consider himself a faithful follower. It's ironic in a way, Niadna and my father would probably both agree that one cannot be a TBM and question leadership about their policy of hiding the church finances. But at the same time, according to her, it is fine to disagree with them about some matters of doctrine like a global flood, God residing on a star and so on. So on the one hand, questioning policy is not okay but on the other, questioning doctrine is? Is that how a TBM is defined? You have to follow policies but not doctrine?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Shulem
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Shulem »

Niadna wrote:Definition of 'cult."

I think your beliefs are weird and I don't like you.

since, like the dictionary, I try to be more descriptive than prescriptive in defining word usage, I try to find the common element that EVERYBODY means when they use the word, especially when they use it to define what someone ELSE believes.

The above seems to be it.

The Mormon cult is certainly one of the worst. There are many cults in the world.

SECOND TOKEN OF THE MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD

Your welcome to go down and express your thoughts and feelings. Tell me what you think of the penalties which were discontinued some 25 years ago.
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Niadna wrote:...and you get to define "TBM," why, precisely? Now you have certainly been gentle in your criticism of my definition of "critic" (and there is NOTHING negative about being a critic; everybody should be one!) "anti" and "extreme anti," but if you can be critical of my definition of those terms, why do you get to define "TBM" without comment?

Exactly. Maybe now you can see why I disagree with the usefulness of your definitions you posted in the OP?

Niadna wrote:But 'picking and choosing' what to believe is what TBM's DO. Or rather, are supposed to do. We ARE supposed to examine, study and pray about everything, right? Get the confirmation of the Holy Ghost for beliefs?
So then can I say that I think the church leaders should be publishing their finances or should apologize for the priesthood ban or should allow women the priesthood and still be a TBM? Do the answers I have to those questions allow you to decide if I am a TBM or a critic?

Niadna wrote:It's not my fault that there are some Mormons who fail to do that and simply decide to believe everything they think their leaders have said...and even they are picking and choosing, you realize. That's both the best thing, and biggest problem with, Mormonism. WE are supposed to figure stuff out.

Well given the way leadership treats the members, one would never know that leadership thinks members can decide for themselves.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

Couple of things:

Joseph Smith did not burn the printing press. He ordered it dismantled, and when the type was destroyed, he offered to pay for it because it wasn't supposed to be destroyed.The building wasn't damaged. No fire was involved and nobody was injured in the process.


Not quite. You only got the last part right that no one was injured. He ordered the press DESTROYED, and the type scattered in the street (effectively destroying it), and they burned everything else at his order, and also if anyone resisted the building was to be DESTROYED. Of course, since the Law's were not in Nauvoo, they could not "resist". This is Edward Bonney, who was there:

In the month of May, [June] A. D. 1844, the new press was put in operation, and the prospectus and first number of a newspaper published under the title of the "Nauvoo Expositor." It contained a series of charges against Joseph Smith, and the leading men in the church, including bigamy, adultery, larceny, counterfeiting, &c. —

In reply to this, the '' Nauvoo Neighbor," a newspaper printed under the direction and control of the Prophet, charged the dissenters from the Mormon faith with the same crimes, and sustained many of the charges by the publication of numerous affidavits, made, without doubt, by the Prophet's standing witnesses. Each appeared determined to out-do the other in the promulgation of slander and abuse, with which, according to their own stories, each had long possessed a knowledge of. If either were guilty of half they were accused of, the gallows had long been defrauded of its just dues, and earth was teeming with the base, the vile, and the bloodstained.

But while the surrounding Country was suffering by and remonstrating against the perpetration of these crimes, and charging them justly upon the Mormons, they with one united voice echoed the cry of "Persecution for Righteousness' sake." Then was it that the old adage was fully proved, that when "rogues fall out honest men get their dues." Upon the issue of the first number of the "Expositor," the Prophet and his adherents determined to at once silence them by the destruction of the press, and the total annihilation of the office.

The subject was brought before the City Council, and many inflamatory speeches were made, in most of which the members of the said Council participated. Smith, the Prophet, told them "that the time had come to strike the blow! That God no longer required them to submit to the oppression of their enemies, and that he should vote for the destruction of the press; that it was a nuisance, and he should order it destroyed as such!"

Hiram Smith spoke in substance the same as his brother, and also denounced in unmeasured terms. Sharp, [was] the editor of the Warsaw Signal. He [Hyrum] said "he would give any man five hundred dollars who would go into the Signal office with a sledge and demolish the press. That it should be done at all hazards, even if it took his farm to pay for it!"

Upon calling for the vote, eleven voted for, and one against, declaring the Expositor a nuisance, and immediate measures were taken for carrying the ordinance for its destruction into effect. —

This dissenting vote was a Mr. [Benjamin] Warring[ton], and the only anti-[non] Mormon in the Council, and little was he regarded by the hot headed ones who were bent on destruction.

The City Marshall, acting under the orders of the Council, raised a force of several hundred men, headed by Gen. [Jonathan] Dunham of the Nauvoo legion, armed with clubs, &c., and proceeded to the printing office. Meeting with no resistance, they entered the office, look the blank paper and other materials and burned them in the streets, pied the type, and taking the press into the street, broke it into pieces with hammers.

This done, they repaired to the house of the Prophet who addressed them in terms of praise, applauding them for their, services, and telling them that they had but done their duty and upheld the law. In return he was loudly cheered by the mob, after which they quietly and immediately dispersed. Some of the leaders, however, remained and congratulated each other upon their success, and the downfall of the power of their enemies. Foremost among them was the Marshall, who thus addressed the Prophet:

"General, this is the happiest hour of my life!" 'Thank you, my good fellow,'' was the reply," you have done well, done your duty, and shall be rewarded for it."

This outrage upon the public press helped to fan the flame already kindled against the Mormon outlaws, by their repeated depredations upon the citizens of the surrounding country, and plainly foreshadowed the storm that was to burst with startling fury.

The dissenting Mormons at once united with those opposed to that sect, and various meetings were called, and all parties urged to arm and prepare themselves to resist any further aggression; to be ready at all hazards to protect themselves and meet the worst.

Warrants were issued against the Smiths, and other leaders, in the destruction of the printing office of the Expositor, and though served by the proper officers, they refused to obey the mandates of the law, and laughed at its power!

As in all former cases, the writ of Habeas Corpus was resorted to, and all the arrested at once set at liberty and discharged from arrest; the same persons that were arrested acting as officers of the Courts that discharged them! Thus effectually defeating the ends of justice, and compelling the officer to return to Carthage without a single prisoner!

This mock administration of law, added new fuel to the flame. The public being convinced that Nauvoo was the headquarters of nearly all the marauders who were preying upon the surrounding community, together with the full belief that the Mormon leaders were privy to their depredations, and the resistance and defeat of justice, now became enraged, and determined to rise in their might and enforce the law, even though it should be at the point of the bayonet or sabre. Determined to rid themselves of the harpies that were gnawing at their very vitals, and if need be, rid themselves of the whole Mormon population. Thoroughly aroused and conscious not only of their power but also the justice of their cause, they fearlessly avowed their purposes, and though still defying, the most secret recesses of Mormondom trembled in view of the bursting of the tempest they had raised, but could not avert. (Edward Bonney, The Banditti of the Prairies: Or, The Murderer’s Doom, A Tale of The Mississippi Valley: An Authentic Narrative of Thrilling Adventures In The Early Settlement Of the Western Country”, 1855, Philadelphia, T.B. Peterson and Brothers, pp. 19-21, Online here, accessed February 2, 2015). https://archive.org/stream/bandittiofpr ... 8/mode/2up


Joseph's order to the Marshal:

To the Marshal of said City [Nauvoo], greeting.

You are hereby commanded to destroy the printing press from whence issues the Nauvoo Expositor, and pi the type of said printing establishment in the street, and burn all the Expositors and libelous handbills found in said establishment; and if resistance be offered to your execution of this order by the owner or others, demolish the house: and if anyone threatens you or the Mayor or the officers of the city, arrest those who threaten you, and fail not to execute this order without delay, and make due return thereon.

By order of the City Council,
JOSEPH SMITH, MAYOR


Smith again,

Monday, June 10, 1844.-

I was in the City Council from­ 10 a. m., to 1:20 p. m., and from 2:20 p. m. to 6:30 p. m. investigating the merits of the Nauvoo Expositor, and also the conduct of the Laws, Higbees, Fosters, and others, who have formed a conspiracy for the purpose of destroying my life, and scattering the Saints or driving them from the state.

An ordinance was passed concerning libels. The Coun­cil passed an ordinance declaring the Nauvoo Expositor a nuisance, and also issued an order to me to abate­ the said nuisance. I immediately ordered the­ Marshal to destroy it without delay, and at the same time issued an order to Jonathan Dunham, acting Major-General of the Nauvoo Legion, to assist the Mar­shal with the Legion, if called upon so to do.

About 8 p. m., the Marshal returned and reported that he had removed the press,TYPE, printed paper, and fix­tures into the street, AND DESTROYED THEM. This was done because of the libelous and slanderous character of the­ paper, its avowed intention being to destroy the munici­pality and drive the Saints from the city. The posse accompanied by some hundreds of the citizens, returned with the Marshal to the front of the Mansion, when I gave ­them a short address, and told them they had done right and that not a hair of their heads should be hurt for it; that they had executed the orders which were given me by the City Council... History of the Church, Volume VI (pp.432-434)


Edward Bonney was close to Joseph Smith and helped him with his legal troubles. Bonney spent a lot of time with the Mormon “prophet”. In Joseph’s diary he is mentioned multiple times, and was included in many decisions that Joseph made. For example, on May 25, Joseph’s Diary reports that,

2 P.[M.] Joseph Jackson come in town/as I heard/. I instructed the officers to have him arrested for threatening life &c. Had a long talk with Hunter Marks, Babbit, Hyrum, [Edward] Bonney, Dr. Richards, Roundy &c. and concluded not to keep out of their way any longer.


Bonney accompanied Joseph to Carthage to answer charges on May 27th. On June 11, Joseph wrote,

“Dr. Richards come to me at my home as I was talking with Hyrum, Eaton, [Edward] Bonny &c.”


When Joseph was brought up on riot charges for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor, he held court in Nauvoo with Daniel H. Wells presiding. He appointed Edward Bonney to prosecute him.

Defendants were brought before the court by Joel S. Miles, constable of the county aforesaid, by virtue of a warrant issued by the court on complaint of W. G. Ware, for a "riot committed in the city of Nauvoo, county aforesaid, on or before the 10th day of June, 1844, by forcibly entering a brick building in said city, occupied as a printing office and taking therefrom by force, and with force of arms, a printing-press, types and paper, together with other property, belonging to William Law, Wilson Law, Robert D. Foster, Charles A. Foster, Francis M. Higbee, Chauncey L. Higbee and Charles Ivins, and breaking in pieces and burning the same in the streets.

George P. Stiles, Esq., appeared as counsel for the defense, and Edward Bonny, Esq., for the prosecution. (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, p.488)


The reason for this is obvious and Smith was let go. It is not clear what happened to Bonney immediately after the death of the Smiths. The last entry about him in the History of the Church claims that as Joseph was leaving Nauvoo for Carthage on the 24th of June:

When they [Joseph and Company] arrived at the top of the hill, [overlooking the City] Joseph sent Rockwell with a horse for Dr. Southwick, a Southern gentleman who had been staying some days at the Mansion, and who wished General Joseph Smith to buy considerable property in Texas; but Ed. Bonny took possession of the horse, so that Dr. Southwick could not then go.


After Smith’s death Edward Bonney moved to Lee County, Iowa and ran a livery stable after which he worked as a Private Detective and helped Law Officers hunt down criminals. On one of his many cases, he volunteered to infiltrate a gang of counterfeiters who had been involved in the murder of George Davenport, a wealthy trader. Years later Bonney would write of his experiences in “The Banditti of the Prairies” and gain much notoriety as a result. The book is considered to be extremely accurate when it is compared to the court records of the cases that Bonney worked on. Brigham Young dropped Bonney from the Council of 50 after Smith’s death and they then began to vilify him. William Clayton wrote in 1847:

June 30, 1847…Elder Samuel Brannan arrived, having come from the Pacific to meet us, obtain council &c. He is accompanied by "Smith" of the firm of [Joseph H.]Jackson, [Mareneus G.] Heaton[Eaton] & [Edward] Bonney, bogus makers of Nauvoo. (George D. Smith, An Intimate Chronicle; The Journals of William Clayton, p.354).


Bonney wrote this nearly a decade after the events, but still claims that Law accused Joseph of trying to seduce his wife. This is good corroborating evidence that this indeed happened.

Where did Joseph ever offer to pay for any of this? You have that, right?
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_grindael
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Re: What is an anti-Mormon?

Post by _grindael »

If you are really all about facts and evidence, I suggest that you do some actual research before making such comments.
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