No Gay Wedding Cake For You

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Maksutov wrote:https://www.syracuse.com/us-news/index.ssf/2018/06/no_gays_allowed_tennessee_hardware_store_sign.html

By Geoff Herbert gherbert@syracuse.com,
syracuse.com

A hardware store owner in East Tennessee is celebrating a new Supreme Court ruling by putting up a sign that says "No Gays Allowed."

If that sounds familiar, it's because he's done it before and made national headlines for it three years ago.

WBIR reports Jeff Amyx first put the sign up on his Amyx Hardware & Roofing Supplies store in Grainger County, about an hour outside of Knoxville, back in 2015 after a Supreme Court ruling legalized same-sex marriage nationwide. Amyx, who is also a baptist minister, said gay and lesbian couples are against his religion.

According to USA Today, Amyx later removed the sign following backlash and replaced it with a sign saying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone who would violate our rights of freedom of speech & freedom of religion."

But on Monday, Amyx posted a sign saying "No Gays Allowed" at his store again.

He told WBIR that he was celebrating a "win" after the Supreme Court narrowly ruled in favor of a Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple. The Supreme Court ruling said the Colorado Civil Rights Commission violated Jack Phillips' rights under the First Amendment, though Colorado law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.


Perfectly legal in Tennessee.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _Res Ipsa »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
The Supreme Court interprets laws written by Congress to determine whether they are constitutional. Right?


Partly right. Actually, the Supreme Court does its best to avoid any ruling on the Constitution if there is another basis for ruling on the case. That's why it ruled on a procedural ground in the wedding cake case rather than say whether the baker was exempt from Colorado's Civil Rights law.

But one of the most important things to understand about the Supreme Court is that, with narrow exceptions, it cannot decide the facts of a case. Factual findings take place at the trial court level. If there are two experts that offer conflicting opinions, and the trial court finds one more credible than the other, the Supreme Court can't simply disagree and agree with the other expert. Its only oversight on determinations of fact is to rule whether there is evidence in the court record that supports the trial court's finding of fact. If expert testimony is needed on a factual issue, trial court judges can (and do) sometimes bring in their own experts to help them understand the issues. But an appellate court makes its decision based on what is in the record and cannot independently determine what is true and what is false.

Now, that's in theory and the Justices are human. They can and do make mistakes and overreach. But I don't think that can be avoided.

Doubting Thomas wrote:But it is my opinion that new US laws should be made based on available data. The US Supreme Court should stop bad laws.


Courts don't make laws. That's the legislative branch, and I agree that they should at least rely on available data. But there is no Constitutional requirement that they do so. And there is no basis for Supreme Court to hold a law invalid on the ground that it wasn't. Under our system, whether a law is good or bad is decided by the legislators and the people who elect them. The notion that a small number of unelected judges should independently determine whether laws are good or bad is antithetical to democracy. The Court's limited role is to determine whether the laws meet certain Constitutional standards -- the wisdom of the laws is left to the political process.

Doubting Thomas wrote:The New York times reports

None of the justices has any serious training in statistics, and the clerks who assist them are almost all recent law school graduates, who rarely have any formal statistical background. Empirical facts are central to what the court does, but its members lack expertise


I disagree that statistical analysis is required in most cases before the Court. And, in any case, the Court is not supposed to re-decide the facts of the case. It is up to the parties at the trial court level to provide sufficient evidence in the record to let the Court determine whether factual conclusions are supported by the evidence. And if it isn't clear, the appellate court's job is to remand the case to the trial court for additional evidence and fact finding.

Now, the one area where I think the Court does get tripped up is Amicus Briefs. When a case is before the Court, parties can file these "friend of the court" briefs that are not strictly limited to facts in the record. The purpose of these briefs is generally to show the broader policy implications of the case before the court. But it is too easy for the Justices to take, say, a study or statistics referenced in one of these briefs and not fully understand it. I would not be opposed to the Court making use of a statistician or other expert to help analyze new material presented in the Amicus briefs -- but not to engage in new fact finding based on the evidence in the record.

DoubtingThomas wrote:You told me "the average Supreme Court Justice is smarter than the average scientist." Please tell me how do you know?


I made the statement for the same reason I'd state that the average Nobel Prize winner is smarter than the average scientist. Both science and law screen for "smartness." I think it's reasonable to expect that the scientists recognized as the best at what they do are almost certain to be smarter than the average. Supreme Court Justices are similar to Nobel Prize winners. They aren't going to come from the pool of below average lawyers. If we take the average of all scientists, we have to include the below average scientists in the calculation. I'd feel equally confident in saying that the average Nobel Prize winner is smarter than the average lawyer.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

Res Ipsa wrote: Now, that's in theory and the Justices are human. They can and do make mistakes and overreach. But I don't think that can be avoided.


Why not? The Court affect millions.

Res Ipsa wrote: Courts don't make laws. That's the legislative branch, and I agree that they should at least rely on available data.


Good! Glad we are getting somewhere. It is a sad fact that Congress is full of idiots.

Res Ipsa wrote: The Court's limited role is to determine whether the laws meet certain Constitutional standards -- the wisdom of the laws is left to the political process.


But constitutional standards are ambiguous. You can easily interpret the Constitution how ever you want. To me saying "it is not constitutional" is the same thing as saying "it is not right".

Res Ipsa wrote:Under our system, whether a law is good or bad is decided by the legislators and the people who elect them. The notion that a small number of unelected judges should independently determine whether laws are good or bad is antithetical to democracy.


Okay. Can you explain why anti-abortion laws are unconstitutional? If the constitution doesn't say anything about abortion rights, then why did the Supreme Court hear Roe v. Wade?

Res Ipsa wrote: But one of the most important things to understand about the Supreme Court is that, with narrow exceptions, it cannot decide the facts of a case. Factual findings take place at the trial court level.


I am confused. So say abortion bases, shouldn't the Supreme Court look at available scientific evidence to make a decision?
_honorentheos
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _honorentheos »

There is a saying about needing to live some before one can really sing or play the blues. Talking to an idealistic kid regarding the rather amazing job the cream of the crop of judges do reminds me of this idea. And anyone who thinks becoming a judge is easier than becoming a scientist is poorly informed anyway. We're talking about the top 9 people in their field in the actual profession being discussed as to their performance and comparing them to the 50th percentile of people who could reasonable be called scientists...that alone should say all that needs to be said.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _honorentheos »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote: Now, that's in theory and the Justices are human. They can and do make mistakes and overreach. But I don't think that can be avoided.


Why not? The Court affect millions.

...and that sounds like a good reason to find the time to read and understand their decisions. Especially when one feels strongly about one of their rulings and their performance.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _honorentheos »

DT -

To further this point, you seem to be confused when it comes to the following issues:

1 - You have a belief regarding what is right and what is wrong that, while you may give lip service to understanding is subjective, you treat as fundamental to reality.
2 - You are aware of the Supreme Court ruling in a way that is not in harmony with your belief regarding what is right and what is wrong.
3 - Because your understanding of the ruling contradicts what you believe is right, you believe that there is a serious flaw with the people making the judgment that you hold to be wrong in a moral sense.
4 - You have also acquired a belief that science and the scientific method is the correct means to acquire knowledge of what is true.
5 - You believe that people trained in using the scientific method have special access to the truth.
6 - Having access to the truth will allow a person to make good judgments.
7 - You will recognize these good judgments because they align with your understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
8 - Because these people trained in the use of the scientific method have special access to the truth, they should be the ones making decisions or judgments which will reflect your belief regarding what is right and what is wrong.
9 - These specially trained individuals, known as scientists, and their special access to the truth that is best recognized by it's corroborating your belief regarding right and wrong will therefore be better at other jobs that people may be trained and highly skilled in that require dealing with complicated issues and unobvious solutions because complications and messy solutions do not seem to match up with your understanding of what is right and what is wrong.
10 - All of the above applies to most people substituting in their preferred people with better access to truth that they recognize by how well it aligns to their internally held concepts of right and wrong.
11 - Someday, you'll learn life is made up almost completely of complicated issues and messy imperfect solutions because of this thing called reality that exists outside of your mind and it's concept of right and wrong. Or not. Many people actually don't. But you might. And then we'll have something to talk about.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

honorentheos wrote: 11 - Someday, you'll learn life is made up almost completely of complicated issues and messy imperfect solutions because of this thing called reality that exists outside of your mind and it's concept of right and wrong. Or not. Many people actually don't. But you might. And then we'll have something to talk about.


Yes life is complicated and messy with no perfect solutions, but that is why we need people with excellent cognitive skills in power.

honorentheos wrote: 2 - You are aware of the Supreme Court ruling in a way that is not in harmony with your belief regarding what is right and what is wrong.


Right and wrong is subjective, but science can tell us a lot about what is wrong (defining wrong as something that physically or psychologically harms).

honorentheos wrote:5 - You believe that people trained in using the scientific method have special access to the truth.
6 - Having access to the truth will allow a person to make good judgments.


The scientific method is the best method we have to learn truth. Almost everything else is just subjective. Can you tell me of a better method? Would it be prayer?

honorentheos wrote: 9 - These specially trained individuals, known as scientists


Trained individuals like scientists, psychologists, and medical doctors.

honorentheos wrote: corroborating your belief regarding right and wrong will therefore be better at other jobs that people may be trained and highly skilled


Someone with good cognitive skills can easily learn law, philosophy, and history.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

To clarify I am not against abortion, but I don't understand why anti-abortion laws are unconstitutional.
_honorentheos
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _honorentheos »

DoubtingThomas wrote:
honorentheos wrote: 11 - Someday, you'll learn life is made up almost completely of complicated issues and messy imperfect solutions because of this thing called reality that exists outside of your mind and it's concept of right and wrong. Or not. Many people actually don't. But you might. And then we'll have something to talk about.


Yes life is complicated and messy with no perfect solutions, but that is why we need people with excellent cognitive skills in power.


Like I said. You replaced prophets with scientists.

honorentheos wrote: 2 - You are aware of the Supreme Court ruling in a way that is not in harmony with your belief regarding what is right and what is wrong.


...science can tell us a lot about what is wrong (defining wrong as something that physically or psychologically harms).

The comment was that you are opposed to the ruling because it does not comport with your sense of right and wrong. It isn't reasoned, it's something you feel in your gut but justify as being logical. Whether or not science can also tell us about ethics missed the point. And it's not logical, either.

honorentheos wrote:5 - You believe that people trained in using the scientific method have special access to the truth.
6 - Having access to the truth will allow a person to make good judgments.


The scientific method is the best method we have to learn truth. Almost everything else is just subjective. Can you tell me of a better method? Would it be prayer?


Exactly my point. You are treating the Supreme Court the same way you react to the General Authorities of the LDS faith. It's coming from your subjective, intuitive sense of the world and what you believe to be right or wrong. And part of that includes you realizing that faithfully taking the word of religious authorities is not justifiable when it comes to real world problems like how many ear rings one should have, whether or not oral sex in marriage is sin, or if pineapple on pizza is a violation of what it means to be a human being. But you aren't yet capable of understanding what is what so you have effectively replaced religion with science and prophets with scientists (one special authority with another) because you don't actually have a reasoned understanding of what that encompasses. You're dreaming of your perfect source of truth to take the place of the one you've lost. Everyone, EVERYONE, is subject to the same biases. The scientific method (key word being method) is a means that pits competing human interests against one another to weed out bad theories and leave the ones that work and can't be refuted. Yet, anyway. It's not special and it's not way of gaining special access to truth so much as burning off the waste so that the truth is what gets left behind. Take some time to read up on the true giants of science, DT. Reading a lengthy biography on Galileo, Newton or Einstein would do you some good.

Meanwhile in reality, the nine people currently serving as Justices on the Supreme Court represent decades of experience in the legal field which they have risen to the top of through intense competition and scrutiny. And they operate in the field they are absolutely best qualified in through a combination of talent, hard work and experience. But they are just dumb biased idiots compared to scientists who are far more qualified to understand and interpret law in order to render judgments because SCIENCE!

honorentheos wrote: 9 - These specially trained individuals, known as scientists


Trained individuals like scientists, psychologists, and medical doctors.

:lol: damned Jesus.

honorentheos wrote: corroborating your belief regarding right and wrong will therefore be better at other jobs that people may be trained and highly skilled


Someone with good cognitive skills can easily learn law, philosophy, and history.


And fight crime, bake a perfect soufflé, and cure cancer. All while writing a poem so touching it leads to world peace. :lol:
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_DoubtingThomas
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Re: No Gay Wedding Cake For You

Post by _DoubtingThomas »

honorentheos wrote: Like I said. You replaced prophets with scientists.


No, scientists are just fallible humans, but there is a reason why scientists are rarely unemployed (even if they aren't working on their own field). It is not easy to get a PhD in science.

honorentheos wrote:The comment was that you are opposed to the ruling because it does not comport with your sense of right and wrong. It isn't reasoned, it's something you feel in your gut but justify as being logical. Whether or not science can also tell us about ethics missed the point. And it's not logical, either.


Okay. So I can be wrong. I am willing to correct myself and I am open to new ideas.

honorentheos wrote: It's coming from your subjective, intuitive sense of the world as you realize that faithfully taking the word of religious authorities is not justifiable when it comes to real world problems like how many ear rings one should have, whether or not oral sex in marriage is sin, or if pineapple on pizza is a violation of what it means to be a human being. But you aren't yet capable of understanding what is what so you have effectively replaced religion with science and prophets with scientists because you don't actually have a reasoned understanding of what that encompasses. You're dreaming of your perfect source of truth to take the place of the one you've lost.


There is no perfect source of truth, but the scientific method is the best one I know of. If you know of something better please let me know.

honorentheos wrote: Exactly my point. You are treating the Supreme Court the same way you react to the General Authorities of the LDS faith.


I am just skeptical of our Supreme Court, our Congress, and our White House. There are many reason why, it isn't just because of just one ruling.
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