Singapore Summit 2018

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_Bach
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _Bach »

DrW wrote:
Chap wrote:So, on the whole, what did the US gain from this meeting, exactly?

Exactly nothing.

.


We got 3 American citizens back to their families and didn’t pay a dime. Just had to show up with decisive character.

How many American citizens to Obama bring home from Iran after paying Billions?

How well did Obama do after getting an audience w the NOKO leader? How well did Obama do with China. How well did he do w Syria after his red line threat? Feckless is as feckless does!
_EAllusion
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _EAllusion »

cinepro wrote:It's easy to ignore how historic this summit is since it's Trump as the President. If it were Obama or Bush or any normal President, we'd probably be declaring today a national holiday.


This is quite disconnected from reality.

ETA: North Korea has been seeking out a meeting like this for decades for internal propaganda purposes. The only thing stopping it was US reluctance based on its own geopolitics. If you think simply agreeing to a meeting, wherein the US offers some concessions and gets in return less than what has been agreed to in previous diplomacy, constitutes a victory so grand it deserves a national holiday like Memorial Day or Christmas, then why do you imagine Obama, Bush, Clinton, Bush... rejected their chance at such a grand occasion that was always available?
_moksha
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _moksha »

cinepro wrote:It's easy to ignore how historic this summit is since it's Trump as the President.

It was said that only Nixon was able to reestablish relations with China because he did not have Republicans calling him a traitor and communist sympathizer every step of the way. The Republican Congress is also sparing Trump from an otherwise histrionic response to overtures to North Korea.

Did everyone see that seven-minute video presentation Trump's staff had commissioned for the North Korean leadership (and also to keep Trump's attention from wandering)? Filmmaker, Leni Riefenstahl, would have admired it.

https://nypost.com/2018/06/12/trump-played-kim-a-movie-like-clip-that-touted-them-as-heroes/
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_EAllusion
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _EAllusion »

Nixon opened relations with China to further drive a wedge between the Soviet Union and China after their relations soured. Whatever the merits of that, this is not that.
_moksha
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _moksha »

EAllusion wrote:Nixon opened relations with China to further drive a wedge between the Soviet Union and China after their relations soured. Whatever the merits of that, this is not that.

Not the point. The point was that Nixon could do it because there was not a horde of fellow Nixons around the corner pointing their finger and yelling "Commie!"
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_MeDotOrg
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _MeDotOrg »

Here are the basic components of the working framework:

  • The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity."
  • The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean peninsula.
  • Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.
  • The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

It strikes me that this summit is back-assward. Normally you start with a declaration of principles that become the basis for a framework. Then negotiators spend months (sometimes years) hammering out the details. At the other end of the process, a meaningful document may or may not occur.

What we have here is two leaders coming together for a declaration of principles, signing such a broad and nebulous framework that it gives the negotiators on both sides a lot of room. The leaders then go home and declare victory, leaving it to the negotiators to actually make it work. This is a lot better than watching PDRK launch missiles over Japan, but so far the two sides have agreed to pursue an agreement, and that's about it.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _Some Schmo »

This summit demonstrates the only thing Drumpf is useful for: authoritarian propaganda. NK will have a field day with this photo op.

Their statement was as bereft of value as a McDonald's hamburger. I've read more substance on a bathroom wall.
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_Chap
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _Chap »

This article sums the whole thing up rather well, don't you think?

Jonathan Freedland:

Trump really has achieved a historic breakthrough – for the Kim dynasty

Executive summary: From everybody's point of view except the brutal and ruthless group around Kim himself, there is nothing new or useful in this agreement. For Kim, it is a win all the way. Not only that, but Trump has been exposed as a foolish and naïve 'negotiator', unfit to represent the world's greatest military power.

God help us all.

A useful way to test the deal Donald Trump has reached with Kim Jong-un is to imagine what Trump himself would have said had it been Barack Obama rather than him who shook hands with the North Korean dictator. Trump and his echo chamber on Fox News and elsewhere would have poured buckets of derision on Obama for the piece of paper he signed with Kim, for the fawning praise he lavished on a brutal tyrant, and for the paltry non-concessions he got in return. He would have branded the agreement a “horrible deal” and condemned Obama as a sucker for signing it.

Look first at what Kim got from the encounter. Once ostracised as a pariah, Kim was treated as a world statesman on a par with the president of the United States, the two meeting on equal terms, right down to the equal numbers of flags behind them as they shook hands. The tyrant now has a showreel of images – including his walkabout in Singapore, where he was mobbed by what the BBC called “fans” seeking selfies – which will feature in propaganda videos for months, if not years.

What’s more, Trump lauded Kim as “a very talented man … who loves his country very much,” a man the US president admired for his ability to take over North Korea at such a young age and to “run it tough”, as he put it in a later press conference. There was not so much as even a rote condemnation of the brutality of the Kim regime – indeed Trump reserved the word “regime” for the Clinton administration of the 1990s. And when asked if he had even mentioned human rights in their talks, he said it had only been discussed “briefly”. The harshest words he had for a country that starved its own people in a famine that cost up to three million lives, were: “It’s a rough situation there … it’s rough in a lot of places by the way.”

So Kim leaves Singapore having gained much of the international legitimacy the dynastic dictatorship has sought for decades. But the gifts from Trump did not end there. He also announced an end to US military exercises in the Korean peninsula – the “war games” which he said were costly and, deploying language Pyongyang itself might have used, “very provocative”. Trump also hinted at an eventual withdrawal of the 28,000 US troops stationed in the Korean peninsula.

And what did Kim give Trump in return for this bulging bag of goodies? The key concession, the one Trump repeatedly invoked, was a promise of “complete denuclearisation”. Trump held this aloft as if it were a North Korean commitment to dismantle its arsenal, with work beginning right away. To be sure, such a commitment would be a major prize, one that would merit all the congratulation a beaming Trump was heaping on himself. But this is where you need to look at the small print.

First, the text itself says merely: “The DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearisation of the Korean Peninsula.” Kim has promised not “complete denuclearisation” but simply “to work toward” that end. Negotiators the world over know is the fudging language you use when you’ve extracted something less than a real commitment. Kim has offered only an aspiration, with no deadline or timetable, not a concrete plan.

Still, even if Kim had pledged “compete denuclearisation” that too would be less than a genuine breakthrough. The longstanding goal of US policy has been CVID: complete, verifiable, and irreversible dismantlement of the North Korean nuclear arsenal. The words “verifiable” and “irreversible” are entirely absent from the agreement.

Again, think of what candidate Trump would have said about that. The Iran deal, which he regularly denounced as “horrible” and from which he withdrew last month, consisted of 110 pages of detailed arrangements – including the deployment of International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors, cameras, seals and the like – to verify Tehran’s fulfilment of its nuclear promises. The Singapore text, which barely runs to a page and a half, does not so much as breathe the word “verifiable”. Indeed, Trump could not even get a commitment from Kim to basic transparency, to disclose the scope of North Korea’s current nuclear capacity, both the weapons it has and its manufacturing capability. How can the world know what Pyongyang has got rid of if it doesn’t know what it has?

But the heart of the matter is the word “denuclearisation” itself. The problem here is that that word does not mean to Kim what Trump thinks it means. To North Korea, it is not shorthand for unilaterally scrapping its arsenal, but a vague aspiration for a nuclear-free region (a move that would, incidentally, require the US to withdraw its nuclear forces from Asia and remove South Korea from the protection of its nuclear umbrella). It would be like misreading the speeches Obama often made calling for a nuclear-free world as a firm US commitment to ditch its nukes. That’s not what they meant at all.

On the contrary, analysts say that the Singapore text’s reference to the Panmunjom declaration of April this year – when the leaders of North and South Korea met for the first time in over a decade – is a further signal that Pyongyang sees the denuclearisation of the Korean peninsula as part of a wider process of global disarmament. Put simply, Kim is saying he’ll get rid of his nuclear weapons only when Russia, China, the US and everyone else gets rid of theirs.

In his press conference, Trump praised himself for achieving a historic milestone that had eluded his predecessors. But it turns out that Pyongyang already offered very similar pledges in agreements it signed with the US in the early 1990s and in 2005. In fact, those earlier accords pushed the North Koreans much further: the former included an inspection regime, the latter a verification process. As the former US negotiator with North Korea, ambassador Wendy Sherman, told MSNBC, “Not only have we been here before, we’ve been here before with much greater specificity.”

Small wonder that the Seoul-based analyst Andrei Lankov declared of the agreement: “It has zero practical value. The US could have extracted serious concessions, but it was not done. N Korea will be emboldened and the US got nothing.” Other experts chorused that the deal was even “thinner” and “looser” than they’d feared.

Of course it is better for the world that Trump and Kim are shaking hands rather than hurling insults and threatening nuclear war. For that we should be grateful. It’s also possible that US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, might now get stuck into the detail and work to fill the yawning gaps. But for now, this is only a historic breakthrough for the Kim dynasty, whose rule over an enslaved nation has been given a huge boost. They will be celebrating. For the rest of us, it is further cause to grieve that the world’s most powerful nation is in such incapable hands.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _Some Schmo »

Look first at what Kim got from the encounter. Once ostracised as a pariah, Kim was treated as a world statesman on a par with the president of the United States, the two meeting on equal terms, right down to the equal numbers of flags behind them as they shook hands.

Here's the thing: with the idiotic election of Drumpf, Kim is a world statesman on par with the president of the United States. The main difference here isn't Kim, it's how low the office of President has sunk as a concept.
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_Xenophon
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Re: Singapore Summit 2018

Post by _Xenophon »

Chap wrote:This article sums the whole thing up rather well, don't you think?

Jonathan Freedland:

Trump really has achieved a historic breakthrough – for the Kim dynasty

Executive summary: From everybody's point of view except the brutal and ruthless group around Kim himself, there is nothing new or useful in this agreement. For Kim, it is a win all the way. Not only that, but Trump has been exposed as a foolish and naïve 'negotiator', unfit to represent the world's greatest military power.

God help us all.
Thanks for the article, Chap. Also, it is good to see you.
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