Trump's War on Children

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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

honorentheos wrote:Would you mind taking on the issue of the Trump administration prioritizing jailing adults with zero tolerance over the well being of families or respect for the intent of the law? Take my main points seriously and I'll consider yours.


Not now.
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

From what I've gathered many, if not the majority, minors are either unaccompanied or those that are crossing with adults haven't been verified to be related to the adults. I'm not sure what those who are bitching about Trump have in mind to safeguard these minors from being trafficked. They are willing, from what I'm reading here, to just trust the kids are with family members and would keep the children with the adults. This would by default place the kids into proximity of unknown elements that would place them into unknown situations not only in the present, but in the future.

The point of immigrating legally is that under the rule of law these kinds of things would be verified.

I'm kind of at a loss as to how cavalier some here are toward the kids and how reactionary they are when it comes to the current solution. I'll note that it seems the only person that read the link I provided is Jersey Girl. I think our government is being as compassionate as it can, and the issue is just being used as a political cudgel.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Yes, it is exactly what is needed. In addition to reading your linked article, I would encourage anyone to read my lengthy response to you two posts above this.


Your post really breaks down the lengths we're going to ensure the illegal immigrant minors are being treated with love and respect. The alternative is to place them with adults in a compound with other adults. I don't see how this is safe for at risk minors.

If anyone can help me understand how we're supposed to verify familial relationships for undocumented illegal immigrants I'm all ears.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _EAllusion »

Hey Doc. Can you help me understand the relative risk of harm of placing all young children in a half orphanage half internment camp away from their families vs. the risk of harm to those same young children being placed with their families when there is a almost certainly a statistically small chance they might not be their families and may have malevolent intent?

Thanks.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:Hey Doc. Can you help me understand the relative risk of harm of placing all young children in a half orphanage half internment camp away from their families vs. the risk of harm to those same young children being placed with their families when there is a almost certainly a statistically small chance they might not be their families and may have malevolent intent?

Thanks.


Sure, once you provide me with hard data regarding the facility. I need to know how many of those illegal immigrant minors were unaccompanied, how many have been verified as legal dependents, and how many remain unverified. I also need you to explain how you would safegaurd all those children since it seems to be a running criticism that illegal immigrant children are being funneled into human trafficking. And finally once you've done that, preferably without including yet another degenerate image of fellatio, if you can provide an actual solution to this perceived problem that is better than the incredible facility we're paying for (I'll not you didn't read the article I linked) I'm all ears.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:1. Where would you like to see the families kept together?

2. How would you verify that they are family?

Keep in mind you are asking these questions as the administration has decided it will work out how to get families back together at some future date in favor of making sure adults go to jail.

ETA: If at all, really. If the accounts are factual, then when a border patrol officer tells a woman her family is over it suggest there may be no real interest in solving that issue anyway.


Keep in mind that if and when some of those families are united, the children will be coming back with conditions like reactive attachment disorder. It's difficult to wrap one's head around what being reunited means in those circumstances.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sure, once you provide me with hard data regarding the facility.


You explained that the minors are being treated with love and respect and the alternatives are riskier to them. I'm asking you to justify that claim.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Homeland Security says 2000 kids have been separated from parents over a six week period. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 706265002/
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_honorentheos
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _honorentheos »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:Hey Doc. Can you help me understand the relative risk of harm of placing all young children in a half orphanage half internment camp away from their families vs. the risk of harm to those same young children being placed with their families when there is a almost certainly a statistically small chance they might not be their families and may have malevolent intent?

Thanks.


Sure, once you provide me with hard data regarding the facility. I need to know how many of those illegal immigrant minors were unaccompanied, how many have been verified as legal dependents, and how many remain unverified. I also need you to explain how you would safegaurd all those children since it seems to be a running criticism that illegal immigrant children are being funneled into human trafficking. And finally once you've done that, preferably without including yet another degenerate image of fellatio, if you can provide an actual solution to this perceived problem that is better than the incredible facility we're paying for (I'll not you didn't read the article I linked) I'm all ears.

- Doc

Doc,

You seem lost in the weeds here. Historically the majority of unaccompanied minors who arrived at the US border were older adolescents as made the news back in 2014. You'll probably recall the hoopla around the Obama administration struggling to figure out what to do with them and similar complaints about where they were being kept while this was being worked out were all over the news.

That part of it isn't new and it is only partisan in that it's easy for the party not in power to criticize the one that is while the system remains overwhelmed.

What IS new is two fold: First, there is a rise in family units making the attempt to come to the US from Central America which means more younger kids and infants. And second, the Trump administration has taken a zero tolerance stance regarding immigrants who show up at the border which means they are prioritizing jailing the adults to await their hearings. It isn't clear how many are attempting to enter through ports of entry and declare themselves asylum seekers and how many are taking the chance of attempting to cross illegally but it seems in both cases there are reported "arrest first, assess later" actions being taken by border patrol.

What's old but now has a new twist is that there are laws that limit how long the US government can detain a minor. There are also laws that dictate how the US government must deal with families that are detained and believed to have entered the US illegally. The current administration's response to this is to forcibly separate the minors from the adults, charge the adults and jail them to await trial, then classify the kids as unaccompanied and send them off to be processed and set up with a sponsor to await their hearing. Hearings can take a year or more to occur.

Both sides are playing games with this, though. When it's reported that HSS has lost over a thousand kids who were sent to be with their sponsors, it implies an overly simplistic and sinister trafficking backdoor moving kids into the hands of pedophiles, pimps, and slave masters and the Trump admin is guilty of either letting this happen or even not caring if it happens. The reality is that most of those kids just disappeared with their sponsors who are mostly family members or otherwise connected with them through the process that led to them being assigned to the sponsor in the first place. There are highly publicized accounts of 8 kids who ended up working in a poultry plant but it's wrong to look at the issue as either purely innocuous or purely sinister. It's messy.

But this idea that because the government has been figuring out how to deal with the exponential increase in adolescent unaccompanied Central American immigrants for four or five years, so they have gotten better at providing legally compliant shelters as they seek and assign sponsors is glossing over what's changed during the Trump administration. Sure, the nursing baby torn from it's mother's breast makes good copy but doesn't represent even a small percentage of what is really happening. But neither is this boogey man idea that people faking being a family so they can be...processed together?...justifies forced separation of families to circumvent the laws around what the government is supposed to do with families and minors.

It's clear the Trump administration has shifted the priorities towards a harsher response towards those arriving here from Central America without visas. This has led to a lower priority being given to basic human rights and includes a clear and obvious move to circumvent international and US law. That's a BFD. The issue around whether or not a particular facility is a dog kennel or a place you would be willing to send your own kid for summer camp is a distraction.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Jersey Girl
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Re: Trump's War on Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
Yes, it is exactly what is needed. In addition to reading your linked article, I would encourage anyone to read my lengthy response to you two posts above this.


Your post really breaks down the lengths we're going to ensure the illegal immigrant minors are being treated with love and respect. The alternative is to place them with adults in a compound with other adults. I don't see how this is safe for at risk minors.

If anyone can help me understand how we're supposed to verify familial relationships for undocumented illegal immigrants I'm all ears.

- Doc


I posted those details on account of the lengthy discussion I had with a friend on Facebook. During the course of that discussion, my Facebook friend insisted that the shelter should be subject to inspection. I pointed out, that it has and will continue to be inspected by the agencies I listed (DSS, Health, Fire) on account of the fact that it is licensed. It was subject to inspection prior to licensing and will continue to be inspected over time in order to maintain the license and ensure that it is operating in compliance with the license.

People typically don't understand what licensing means. It means that everything that takes place, the environment in which it takes place indoors/outdoors, how and when it takes place, is regulated as per state law.

SKS provides transition and emotional support. They fully understand the nature of what the children need and how to meet their needs. It would be akin to placing someone like me in the program. For example, someone like me is trained and educated to meet the social/emotional needs of children, how to guide behavior and provide curriculum that is intellectually stimulating with intentionality.

The concern I have is that given the huge influx of immigrants (adults/children) that the programs will need to be somehow expanded into other areas such as miltary bases and I don't know where the staffing will come from. Each military base has it's own child development program and those are typically full with regard to enrollment.

People are rightly concerned about the well being of the children. Keep in mind, however, that a significant number of children have already been impacted by violence in their country of origin. If SKS is hooking them up with therapeutic solutions, it can only help.

And as I said previously, no one wants to see children separated from their parents for even a few days much less a month or so. If there were some way to facilitate visits between the adults and children while they are detained, that would be a plus. However, some of the adults are being jailed.

It's not a good situation for any of the immigrants. Neither was the situation and living conditions in their countries of origin which is why they made the journey and effort to cross into the US to start with. The journey itself is fraught with risk, as is the nature of detention when they cross and still, they made the decision to take those risks in order to escape the brutal conditions they lived in. Even despite Jeff Sessions declaration in early May that they would be separated, they still came and they fled without documentation.

The relationship verification issue is difficult to contend with. I do know that the gov't was set up with DNA testing kits years ago, a number of which were going unused. I haven't been able to find anything regarding the status of DNA testing currently. I think the gov't could make strides if it will push and facilitate DNA testing so that relationships can be verified and children reunited with adults. But then you still have the issue of where families will be accommodated and worst of all, we have Jeff Sessions outright manipulating the situation on his end with regard to how immigrants are being classified and children are suffering on account of it.

Given the fact that children were already suffering before they arrived and that they continue to suffer, I would err on the side of caution and not place them with unrelated adults without adequate supervision--bare minimum--because then you are placing already at risk children, at risk of being abused by unrelated adults. I don't know how we can realistically expect the gov't to secure any more appropriate housing than it already is securing in an effort to accommodate immigrant refugees.

There are no easy answers here. Even if we could wave a magic wand and make Sessions retract his May declaration, there would still remain the issue of undocumented adults arriving with undocumented minor children for which there is no proof of relationship or parentage, and our gov't would still need to deal with that and also the issue of separation and food, shelter, medical care--and how to meet the children's needs 24/7. You cannot have children languishing in adult centers with nothing to do for days on end, that would be a form of neglect.

I can think of other ways to reconfigure the use of shelters but that's easy to do sitting in my nice house with all my creature comforts and space while the gov't is being immediately faced with immigrants/refugees in droves.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
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