Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

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_EAllusion
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:Because this can't be the threshold. Removed from the law, moral arguments rely on personal judgment with gatekeepers who determine who gets in and who doesn't on the grounds. She could be morally correct to you and have acted amorally in someone else's opinion and you would be left to say as you have, "They have bad judgment."


You don't seem to be dealing with the fact that it is legal to discriminate services based on political views, or any number of other reasons, and this has not led to a fundamental tension that has brought down public accommodation laws. We can understand your argument mean:

1) If seriously accepted, the logic of allowing people to refuse service to anyone on the basis of any of their beliefs or actions logically undermines any justification for any legal prohibition of businesses discriminating against protected classes of people.

or

2) This fact will lead to the collapse of public accommodation laws.

You seem to be arguing both, but you're supplying zero reason to think either are true and the latter seems to be plainly contradicted by years of public accommodation laws existing without any serious challenge coming from the fact that it is perfectly legal to kick politicians out of businesses because of disapproval of their actions. You're writing almost as if you think refusing service to Sanders was legally questionable. At present time, it isn't. Unlike you, critics of the restaurant are focused on the impropriety of their actions, not the legality of them.

I don't care for public accommodations laws, and would welcome a demonstration that an action like this undermines the justification for them at all, but I'm skeptical this can be successfully argued. And really, if you do argue it, you are making a case that a Goebbels who hasn't been unfortunate enough to be on the losing side of a war ought to have a legal right to be served at whatever business he wants, by whomever he wants - including Jews - without interference. If you think that, great, but have courage in your convictions then. I think such a demonstration would reveal a moral rot at the center of those laws. If public accommodations logically cannot exist as a carve out from people's general freedom of association, then they should not exist.

You're relying on the notion that people can judge appropriately where and when public accommodation can be trumped by a person making a value judgment so we must allow for that.


You can't escape the need to have people making sound value judgments about what sorts of activities can and cannot be discriminated against by retreating into the law. The law makes distinctions and the authors and ratifiers of the law have to display sound judgment in the distinctions it makes. We necessarily are forced to rely on people's ability to make sound judgements. Otherwise, you are advocating for simple anarchy where a person has a legal right to be in a private establishment open to the public regardless of their behavior. No one, including you, seriously thinks or wants that.
_honorentheos
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _honorentheos »

EAllusion wrote:You can't escape the need to have people making sound value judgments about what sorts of activities can and cannot be discriminated against by retreating into the law. The law makes distinctions and the authors and ratifiers of the law have to display sound judgment in the distinctions it makes. We necessarily are forced to rely on people's ability to make sound judgements. Otherwise, you are advocating for simple anarchy where a person has a legal right to be in a private establishment open to the public regardless of their behavior. No one, including you, seriously thinks or wants that.

Exactly the point.

While there are clearly laws in various jurisdictions that do specifically make politics a protected class against which one cannot discriminate, there is precedent against which one would need to make an argument. Demonstrating how discrimination based on political affiliation is justifiable would be a reasonable given the Constitutionality of a discriminatory act has not historically always relied on laws being on the books that are violated. Often they have come as challenges to such laws.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Kishkumen
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Kishkumen »

Some Schmo wrote:You know, it's possible this whole incident was a misunderstanding. Maybe Sanders didn't realize she was in a vegetarian restaurant when they told her we don't serve cows.


Now, now. Let’s not impugn the character of innocent cows.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Hawkeye
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Hawkeye »

Remember when Republicans lionized a baker who refused to serve Vice President Joe Biden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8BKAWEzrXE
_subgenius
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _subgenius »

Hawkeye wrote:Remember when Republicans lionized a baker who refused to serve Vice President Joe Biden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8BKAWEzrXE

So the recent Press Secretary's refusal of dinner service at the Red Hen, in your mind, is the same as Biden wanting a publicity/campaign stop:

Mr. McMurray said the Biden campaign approached him to ask if the vice president could drop by his cookie shop while campaigning, and he replied, “Nothing personal, but I just happened to disagree with the president and the vice president on a few things.”

Yeah, these events are totally the same thing - someone call the hypocrisy police!
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_canpakes
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _canpakes »

subgenius wrote:
Hawkeye wrote:Remember when Republicans lionized a baker who refused to serve Vice President Joe Biden?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8BKAWEzrXE

So the recent Press Secretary's refusal of dinner service at the Red Hen, in your mind, is the same as Biden wanting a publicity/campaign stop:

Mr. McMurray said the Biden campaign approached him to ask if the vice president could drop by his cookie shop while campaigning, and he replied, “Nothing personal, but I just happened to disagree with the president and the vice president on a few things.”

Yeah, these events are totally the same thing - someone call the hypocrisy police!

It’s not the same thing. Biden asked permission. : )
_moksha
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _moksha »

canpakes wrote:It’s not the same thing. Biden asked permission. : )

Huckabee Sanders should not have to ask permission to dine in any public restaurant. Could you imagine some Parisien restaurant refusing to serve Imelda Marcos or some so-called "Swiss café" refusing to bring a stein of hot chocolate to Eva Braun?
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_canpakes
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _canpakes »

moksha wrote:Huckabee Sanders should not have to ask permission to dine in any public restaurant. Could you imagine some Parisien restaurant refusing to serve Imelda Marcos or some so-called "Swiss café" refusing to bring a stein of hot chocolate to Eva Braun?

Perhaps restaurant staff were concerned that they could not adequately service Sanders, as bugia was not a menu item.
_honorentheos
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _honorentheos »

canpakes wrote:It’s not the same thing. Biden asked permission. : )

In all fairness, I wasn't impressed to see this in my news feed today. Seeking a photo o p vs. someone having dinner like any other customer in the restaurant isn't comparable. It's a bad look when some are trying to make it into something it isn't.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Hawkeye
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Re: Sarah Sanders kicked out of Virginia Restaurant

Post by _Hawkeye »

subgenius wrote:Yeah, these events are totally the same thing - someone call the hypocrisy police!


“Nothing personal, but I just happen to disagree with the president and the vice president on a few things.’’

That was his reasoning so in that sense it is exactly the same thing. This idiot said he was particularly upset about Obama's "you didn't build that" remark that was taken out of context and the entire Right Wing world played stupid on purpose just to use it as a political weapon.

Now when it happens to the Queen of Lies, Conservatives suddenly find outrage that anyone would be denied service because of their Right Wing views. Because, you know, hypocrisy. Except Sanders was likely denied not for her political views, but because she is constantly lying to the country and is complicit in Trump's dismantling of American democracy.

Turns out he went out of business in 2016, so he really didn't build anything.
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