Water Dog wrote:Show me a vet of recent wars with credible experience that would agree with your assertion of NATO member's military capabilities. Not a politician. Not some Vietnam-era retiree. Not some neocon warhawk twat at National Review.
My nephew served in Afghanistan. He'd disagree with you, WD.
So would Votevets. They're not politicians, nor Vietnam vets, nor neocons.
Water Dog wrote:You don't have to believe me. There are a lot of people who have worked with NATO. What are they saying? I participate on several military forums dedicated to SOF veterans. This Trump/NATO business is a major topic of discussion right now. How about you take a stroll over to those forums and see how the conversations are going. Spoiler Alert, there is near-unanimous consent that NATO is old thinking and they applaud Trump potentially shaking it up or pulling out altogether... for all the reasons I've given in this thread. They see Trump's behavior towards NATO as good and cheer it.
Spoiler alert. The forums you participate in are not the whole of the world of veterans.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Water Dog wrote:You've got Mohammed cracking the top 10 name list in the UK.
Even if true, how is this relevant?
Water Dog wrote:Crime through the roof in London. Paris. Denmark. On and on. But, yah, sure, they're totally going to defend us. They can't protect their own daughters from getting raped in their own cities.
I only took the time to look up the stats for Denmark. Glancing at them, I have to wonder where you're getting your information.
Water Dog wrote:You don't have to believe me. There are a lot of people who have worked with NATO. What are they saying? I participate on several military forums dedicated to SOF veterans. This Trump/NATO business is a major topic of discussion right now. How about you take a stroll over to those forums and see how the conversations are going. Spoiler Alert, there is near-unanimous consent that NATO is old thinking and they applaud Trump potentially shaking it up or pulling out altogether... for all the reasons I've given in this thread. They see Trump's behavior towards NATO as good and cheer it.
Spoiler alert. The forums you participate in are the the whole of the world of veterans.
I admit I have not heard any good arguments for getting out of NATO. That is the #1 goal of Putin. Russia is the only one who benefits from NATO falling apart. Before Trump republicans and Democrats were big supporters of NATO even though yes a number of countries should spend more. Not because they are not meeting their other commitments to NATO, but because we don't know the future and may need more capabilities. The US would lose big if they left NATO as would all NATO countries. The US would lose a lot of it's capabilities without allies. No access to their airspace or territory. Now Trump is president and we know Russia helped to get him in. And he is promoting Russian foreign objectives. The danger going on right now is not that Trump will pull out of NATO this year. That is unlikely to be successful, but the manipulation from Russia with Trump to achieve more support for getting out of NATO so that maybe in a year or more they may just have enough support to make the biggest mistake of the century. Guys like WD don't even see they are being manipulated by Russia.
As this thread continues it becomes increasingly difficult for me to decide whether WD is naïvely being manipulated by and falling for Trump and Russia's deceptions, or has become or is becoming a willing participant in their attempts to deceive and manipulate. I can't help getting the impression that even the prospect of the USA becoming, in effect, merely another province of Russia is preferable to Donald Trump and his cohorts to giving up whatever political power and influence they aspire to, if that is what it takes to acquire it.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Even assuming (which I doubt) that Water Dog is representative of the opinion of members of the current US military, I don't think it has been the habit of the governments of countries successful in maintaining their place in the world to make decisions about their alliances by asking their soldiers to express their preferences as to how such things should be managed.
I doubt too whether Trump has yet brought his country so low that the USA is likely to be the first to attempt to do so.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Gunnar wrote:As this thread continues it becomes increasingly difficult for me to decide whether Water Dog is naïvely being manipulated by and falling for Trump and Russia's deceptions, or has become or is becoming a willing participant in their attempts to deceive and manipulate. I can't help getting the impression that even the prospect of the USA becoming, in effect, merely another province of Russia is preferable to Donald Trump and his cohorts to giving up whatever political power and influence they aspire to, if that is what it takes to acquire it.
There's a long tradition of a regime bringing in outside forces to suppress their own people. That's the sort of thing America was supposed to be leaving behind in the Old World.
More and more the only coherent pattern I'm seeing in "Make America Great" is "Piss Off the Liberals". How much of this is pure resentment, sibling rivalry, American class warfare, status anxiety, etc.
Chap wrote:Even assuming (which I doubt) that Water Dog is representative of the opinion of members of the current US military, I don't think it has been the habit of the governments of countries successful in maintaining their place in the world to make decisions about their alliances by asking their soldiers to express their preferences as to how such things should be managed.
I doubt too whether Trump has yet brought his country so low that the USA is likely to be the first to attempt to do so.
There are occasional episodes of American generals flexing political muscles. They've had very uneven results.
Edwin Walker Smedley Butler Douglas MacArthur George Van Horn Moseley
Chap wrote:Even assuming (which I doubt) that Water Dog is representative of the opinion of members of the current US military, I don't think it has been the habit of the governments of countries successful in maintaining their place in the world to make decisions about their alliances by asking their soldiers to express their preferences as to how such things should be managed.
I doubt too whether Trump has yet brought his country so low that the USA is likely to be the first to attempt to do so.
There are occasional episodes of American generals flexing political muscles. They've had very uneven results.
Edwin Walker Smedley Butler Douglas MacArthur George Van Horn Moseley
In a democracy, the military should be on tap, never on top.
Don't want to run the risk of your son having to take part in military action you don't approve of? Simple. Persuade him to go into real estate.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.