Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteria

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_Water Dog
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Water Dog »

Kishkumen wrote:The problem with you is that his obvious incompetence is not enough to turn you off! You seem to like it!

Problem? What problem? If Trump is incompetent, then what are you? Trump is sitting in the White House because he defied the so-called "competence" of so many others. These spittling conversations are unfortunate, what is the objective? Underwhelming attempts at intimidation. And this is really what Ceeboo's OP is about. Rhetoric is not balanced with reality. This is by design, to bully people. Here in a few months we'll get our first test and get to see if it works. I, for one, am not intimidated.
_Xenophon
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Xenophon »

Ceeboo wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:I’m not going to defend Hillary’s decision to continue to revisit the election in this divisive way. But, as a point of accuracy, she did not actually say that all Trump voters matched her denigrating description.

Right, she said "half" of the Trump supporters are racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamophobic and deplorable.
but it’s not as if she described all Trump voters as being exactly the same.


Yep, only 30 plus million Americans. That's not so bad.
Ceeboo, I do think in keeping with canpakes "less than absolute" reading, it might be better to view Clinton's statement as a generality rather than a statistical analysis of the precise number of Trump voters. I didn't agree with her comments at the time and there is of course an argument to be made that clarity of language is really important for a politician but that is a different conversation. I think canpakes has offered a much better way to frame the discussion; that there is a disconnect between saying "I'm not racist" or "morality matters" while simultaneously voting for a candidate that is so counter to those points. That, along with the expansion of the argument done by others (thanks for relinking the Coates article Honor) is more how I view the topic of whether or not Trump voters and supporters are racist.

As an aside, it is amusing to watch people read Clinton so literally in her comments while they also implore us not to read Trump's tweets so literally. Not saying you have done this Ceeboo, you have been very public in your dislike of Trump's language, just speaking generally of those that have defended Trump's tweets.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_canpakes
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _canpakes »

honorentheos wrote:We have to be cautious in looking at the worst characteristics of our political foes and wondering how it is that they could possibly be supported despite that while failing to recognize we all are overlooking something because we believe the greater good will ultimately be served by the one candidate compared to the other and it isn't as simple as overlooking racism, infidelity, or whathaveyou.

I agree completely with this.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Kishkumen »

Water Dog wrote:Problem? What problem? If Trump is incompetent, then what are you? Trump is sitting in the White House because he defied the so-called "competence" of so many others. These spittling conversations are unfortunate, what is the objective? Underwhelming attempts at intimidation. And this is really what Ceeboo's OP is about. Rhetoric is not balanced with reality. This is by design, to bully people. Here in a few months we'll get our first test and get to see if it works. I, for one, am not intimidated.


No, you are not ashamed. It has nothing to do with intimidation. To call it intimidation is to mistake morality for violence. The reason Trump was able to win was not because he was competent. No, not at all. The reason Trump was able to win was because our politics and media were already broken. Fox had long been happy to give Trump a bully pulpit to spout his nutty conspiracy theories and blustering buffoonery. They had, for completely venal reasons, provided an unwarranted level of quasi-legitimacy to a guy who deserved none. None.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Some Schmo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Some Schmo »

Ceeboo wrote: An infant posing as an adult male.

Thanks for the confession, although it was unnecessary.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Some Schmo »

canpakes wrote:
honorentheos wrote:We have to be cautious in looking at the worst characteristics of our political foes and wondering how it is that they could possibly be supported despite that while failing to recognize we all are overlooking something because we believe the greater good will ultimately be served by the one candidate compared to the other and it isn't as simple as overlooking racism, infidelity, or whathaveyou.

I agree completely with this.

This is definitely an important point to keep in mind at all times when considering choosing candidates.

What becomes exasperating is when people talk about their candidate in "can do no wrong" terms when it is blatantly obvious most of what they do is wrong.

I had a conversation with a right-leaning friend of mine yesterday and he expressed criticism of the way Obama handled Russian interference in our election. I echoed that criticism, and asked him if that was so bad, how does he tolerate Drumpf completely denying it. It's weird to watch someone's face when something painfully obvious suddenly occurs to them.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey CP!
canpakes wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:Let me see if I can pick one person out of the crowd and drill down a bit. Okay there is a tall Mexican fellow in a silk yellow shirt doing the hustle, do you see him?. He voted for Trump because he is a small business owner with three kids and (in his opinion - right or wrong) Trump would create a path for him to be able to afford health insurance for the three people he loves most on planet earth. Something he can't afford now.

So he exercises his constitution right to vote and he votes for Trump.


Our hypothetical voter above had a choice between a candidate who has been involved with the health care and insurance debate and has worked on proposals and possible solutions, flawed or otherwise. The other candidate stood with the folks who stomped their feet and loudly proclaimed how they were going to tear down the recent changes to the system

Obviously, given how you have laid out the choices that our dancer in the silk shirt had, you create a scenario that dismisses and ignores his opinion (right or wrong) He believes (for whatever reason) that a Hillary victory would have resulted in his inability to provide health care for his three children. It doesn't matter what your opinions on the subject are - or my opinions are on the subject - The ONLY thing that matters to our Mexican friend when he enters the voting booth is WHAT HIS OPINIONS ARE. And his opinions, just the a great may of us, are formed by his life, his personal experiences, his value system, his worldview, his beliefs, etc etc.


So how did our hypothetical voter above arrive at his decision? This is the question that makes other non-Trump voters (NTVs, for brevity here on out) scratch their heads with wonder.

Do all 30 million Trump voters make them scratch their heads with wonder? Do you think Hillary voters would cause other Americans to scratch their heads and wonder?

And this question comes up again and again. Vote for Hillary, when her immoral husband got a blow job from an intern?

That's a distracting proposal. Generally speaking (not the exceptions that can be trotted out on either side) I would place the number of Americans that didn't vote for Hillary because her husband got a blow job decades ago at around 83.

In other words, the reasons given for rejecting Clinton also rule out Trump,

In some aspects, I agree. In other aspects, I don't agree. As I have said, I personally could not support either candidate but I recognize that my personal opinions/views are only mine. Each and every one of my fellow Americans have every right and freedom to formulate theirs. They ought to be able to vote any way they choose without condemnation - It is their personal choice, just like it's yours or mine.

So what are the actual underlying reasons that are driving some voters to pick one over the other?
[/quote] I don't know, I can only share my reasons but I am quite confident that the list of possible reasons for American citizens collectively in quite long. The danger, in my opinion, is to apply reasons upon huge numbers of diverse people (either side) when we don't know the reasons/reason - We may never know the reason/reasons - And to be frank, we ought not be as arrogant as to demand knowing the reason/reasons why any particular individual voted the way they did - or didn't.

We have elections - we vote - we get results. In every election, about half of our citizens are pleased and about half of our citizens are not. That's how it works.

ETA - Sorry about how this confusing post came out - I obviously hit a wrong key somewhere.
_Ceeboo
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Ceeboo »

Hey K!

Kishkumen wrote: The reason Trump was able to win was because our politics and media were already broken


in my opinion, this played a huge role in Trump's victory. Not the only role but a huge one all the same.
_Maksutov
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Maksutov »

Ceeboo wrote:Hey K!

Kishkumen wrote: The reason Trump was able to win was because our politics and media were already broken


in my opinion, this played a huge role in Trump's victory. Not the only role but a huge one all the same.


Yep. It was a year when the American people were going to lose. :sad:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Chap
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Re: Trump + Putin + Helsinki Press Conference = More Hysteri

Post by _Chap »

Ceeboo wrote: ... Each and every one of my fellow Americans ... ought to be able to vote any way they choose ...


Why, yes. Non-one disagrees with that.

Ceeboo wrote: ... without condemnation


They should certainly not suffer any judicial 'pain or penalty' for casting their vote. But their fellow-citizens are perfectly free, should they wish, to say to those who voted for Trump, in effect

"Thanks. You gave us a president who is an open racist and misogynist, and who tells obvious lies whenever it suits him. He shows no sign of being willing to study the briefing materials essential to fulfilling his presidential role, and rather than listening to expert advisors he has surrounded himself with family members and yes-men. He feels free to abandon his post for the golf course in a way unparalleled in any previous presidency - and all at a huge cost to the tax-payer. He has such a huge ego that rather than believe the testimony of his own intelligence services about Russian activity in favour of his election, he prefers the word of Vladmir Putin. He insults and alarms long-term allies, and is ripping up measures of environmental protection in favor of his rich friends, after having told us that global warming is a Chinese hoax. He treats meetings with world leaders as a vanity trip, and expects us to admire him for it. You did all that to our country, and to the world, and I hope you will take responsibility for the consequences."
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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