1984 in 2018

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_Some Schmo
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _Some Schmo »

schreech wrote: There is a lot of information here about their community standards and its not terribly ambiguous but I get your point:

https://www.Facebook.com/communitystandards/violence_criminal_behavior

Yep, I agree that it sounds pretty straightforward on that page, and from what I read there, they had ample cause to ban Jones.

I guess I'd have felt better about the whole thing if they'd just stated which rules in their terms he'd broken without resorting to the phrase "hate speech." The page you link cites "harm" far more than "hate" and I think that approach is on the right track. They didn't need to mention "hate speech" in their statement for why they banned Jones, and now we have a bunch of people whining and crying foul for all the wrong reasons. The phrase taints (for me and my exceptionally delicate sensibilities) what I imagine most reasonable people agree was a very reasonable action to take.

From this perspective, I'm more sympathetic to what honor was saying when this all happened.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Gunnar
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _Gunnar »

Ceeboo wrote:Subgenius,

I completely recognize that you are mocked incessantly and called vile things quite often on this board - Much of which is supported and encouraged by those here who pile on.

But, do you think you could refrain from using Down Syndrome as a personal insult at someone? (This isn't the first time that I have seen you do this). For the people who have this genetic disorder, as well as the many loved ones around them, it is a very challenging and difficult journey to manage, on many levels. Please stop.

Thanks, Ceeboo! As the father of Down Syndrome daughter myself, I appreciate your support on that, and highly resent subgenius' highly offensive remark.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.

“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
_Kishkumen
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _Kishkumen »

schreech wrote:didn't Facebook indicate that they considered his speech "hate" speech because it could be linked directly to violent acts committed by his listeners? Honestly, I don't really care much about the reason a private company chooses to enforce their own terms and conditions but it seems like Facebook was somewhat specific in that Alex Jones "hate" speech has led directly to violence and death threats against the people he targeted in his bat-shit crazy conspiracy theories.


Did they enforce this standard in a timely way, or are they appealing to it long after the offense? I’m just finding it difficult to believe that these companies were responding to a recent, specific even that crossed a clear line, forcing them to expel Jones.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_schreech
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _schreech »

Kishkumen wrote:
schreech wrote:didn't Facebook indicate that they considered his speech "hate" speech because it could be linked directly to violent acts committed by his listeners? Honestly, I don't really care much about the reason a private company chooses to enforce their own terms and conditions but it seems like Facebook was somewhat specific in that Alex Jones "hate" speech has led directly to violence and death threats against the people he targeted in his ____ crazy conspiracy theories.


Did they enforce this standard in a timely way, or are they appealing to it long after the offense? I’m just finding it difficult to believe that these companies were responding to a recent, specific even that crossed a clear line, forcing them to expel Jones.


Honestly, I don’t know. I’m guessing there is a clause in there that says they can terminate whenever they want and maybe there was a final straw. It seems like kind of an at will employment situation and they certainly had enough evidence to ban him. That said, maybe their lawyers finally told them that his account was creating a liability situation since he is getting sued. Eh, no se.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
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_canpakes
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _canpakes »

Kishkumen wrote:canpakes:

How has the action against Jones brought greater clarity to the definition of hate speech or the location of the boundaries?


I don’t think that it has brought any greater clarity to the definition of hate speech. I see their classification of Jones’ output (for lack of a better word) as nebulous. And I think that’s intentional.

What it does do, though, is draw a slightly clearer line in the sand on the location of the boundaries, even if there are no specifics offered. Most rational people can accept that Jones’ output has spurred some folks to commit dangerous, irrational actions arguably motivated by malice or ‘hate’. So, while we can’t formulate a precise cause and effect relationship, specific events can be linked to specific items from Jones’ menu of conspiracies.

It is, in a way, like the ‘bare shoulders’ theory of porn. Probably few folks can define exactly why bare shoulders became considered bad form (at least in the LDS community), and it’s not clear that exposure to bare shoulders leads anyone to commit socially unsavory or dangerous actions, but like so much of what is considered to lay within the realm of ‘porn’, bare shoulders in and of themselves set a boundary of sorts best left uncrossed by community members in general. Thus it becomes a standard by which to render judgment. Same for Apple and Google; they don’t have to define what makes Jones’ rants ‘hate’ speech so much as link it to the possibility of bad outcomes, and their desire to avoid looking complicit in such. And the community will hopefully police itself accordingly, or suffer some degree of shunning.

And where does that leave Shapiro? He has to deal with a nebulous definition of a type of bad behavior. This kind of constraint does not sit well with conservatives. They’re not into nuance or grey zones in general, and when it comes to their own behavior, they seem much happier to have ‘bad’ explicitly spelled out and the rules plainly decided, so that they can know what they can do that gets as close as possible to the boundary while still pointing out that they are not at fault for any consequence because they did not explicitly cross that boundary. For many of them, rules don’t exist to suggest good behavior so much as tell them what they can get away with.

And I’ll stick to my guns on the notion that Shapiro’s criteria example - “how many conspiracy theories offered up”, etc. - is a purposeful diversion and trap because what qualifies as a flagrantly bad example would never be defined by anyone in the conservative realm. They’d leave that to centrists, liberals and rationals, then decry the ‘censorship’ of having to adhere to and suffer from any type of definition, allowing them to rationalize their acceptance and continuation the same behavior while simultaneously being able to play yet another persecution card.

I’m sure that this sounds cynical, and I wish that the everyday experience offered by the world of conservative thought offered something different, but it doesn’t. If you don’t believe me, just spend a few weeks listening to conservative talk radio.
_Water Dog
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _Water Dog »

schreech wrote:Image

Image

Image

Image

Wow, 4 gifs, I guess that means I lost, :rolleyes:

schreech wrote:You downplay competitors to Facebook (Youtube - 1.9 billion active users, instagram - 1billion + active users, google+ - 2.2 billion profiles and 111million active accounts, Twitter - 328 million active users, snapchat - 191 million DAILY active users, reddit - 330 million monthly active users, etc. - this is only including US based social media platforms)


Youtube - not a competitor
Instagram - not a competitor, and, incidentally, owned by Facebook
Google+ - anybody with any google related account is forced to create a "plus" profile by default. I have at least a dozen google+ profiles.
Twitter - not a competitor
Snapchat - not a competitor, nor is its more popular counterpart WhatsApp (which is owned by Facebook)
Reddit - not a competitor

None of these are competitors to Facebook, and half of them aren't even marginally classified as "social media." Reddit is not social media. Snapchat is not social media. Youtube is not social media.

Here's a clue on how you can know if something is a competitor to Facebook or not. If someone uses it simultaneously with Facebook, then it probably isn't a competitor. For example, a person doesn't generally buy phone service from Verizon and T-Mobile at the same time. A person doesn't generally have both an iPhone and a Samsung at the same time. They pick one, or the other. There is a market, and people choose one provider within that space. If someone is active on Facebook, and active on Twitter, and active on Reddit, and YouTube, etc., that's a good indication that these services are not competing with each other.
_Water Dog
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _Water Dog »

schreech wrote:...to try to distract from the fact that you think the govt should step in and force a private business to be a "free speech" platform for any crackpot that can create a FREE account. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong.

You need to take a step back and breath some fresh air, because I have said no such thing. I am speaking to the principle of the situation, nothing more. They are perfectly within their rights to censor whatever the hell they want for whatever reasons they want. In doing so, however, they are walking a tightrope. If they are perceived to wield power over public discourse that serves to abrogate free speech, they will (rightfully) find themselves under regulatory crosshairs. Which has already happened to a preliminary probing extent. We are witnessing the beginnings of these conversations, which will grow over time.
_schreech
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _schreech »

Water Dog wrote:
Youtube - not a competitor
Instagram - not a competitor, and, incidentally, owned by Facebook
Google+ - anybody with any google related account is forced to create a "plus" profile by default. I have at least a dozen google+ profiles.
Twitter - not a competitor
Snapchat - not a competitor, nor is its more popular counterpart WhatsApp (which is owned by Facebook)
Reddit - not a competitor

None of these are competitors to Facebook, and half of them aren't even marginally classified as "social media." Reddit is not social media. Snapchat is not social media. Youtube is not social media.

Here's a clue on how you can know if something is a competitor to Facebook or not. If someone uses it simultaneously with Facebook, then it probably isn't a competitor. For example, a person doesn't generally buy phone service from Verizon and T-Mobile at the same time. A person doesn't generally have both an iPhone and a Samsung at the same time. They pick one, or the other. There is a market, and people choose one provider within that space. If someone is active on Facebook, and active on Twitter, and active on Reddit, and YouTube, etc., that's a good indication that these services are not competing with each other.


At this point, I can only assume you just like being wrong. Like everything you just said above is nonsense and you get so focused on the myopia of the things others post that you completely miss the point - including your own.

I have a Chevy AND an Audi, I guess they arent competitors. I have whirlpool AND LG appliances, I guess they can't be competitors. I have a mac AND a galaxy tablet, I guess samsung and apple arent competitors. I use chrome AND firefox so they certainly can't be competitors. I have hulu AND prime video AND netflix, I guess they arent competitors. I could go on and on here but most people would get the point by now.

Whats even funnier is that I am looking at both my iphone and galaxy (verizon and tmobile) phone right now but, hey, that's not really the point. The point is you just keep making making up completely self serving, convient definitions of things you don't understand to try to support the argument that you are failing to make about Facebook being a monopoly, which, again, is ALSO not the point of this thread.

Your understanding of both market competition and anti-trust laws is so lacking, I don't think there is any reason to respond as you have proven that, like most devout believers, you are not open to having your mind changed and you don't seem to want to actually research the issue. Ill just leave you these:

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/120314/who-are-facebooks-fb-main-competitors.asp

https://www.marketing91.com/13-facebook-competitors/

https://www.dreamgrow.com/top-15-most-popular-social-networking-sites/

https://www.lifewire.com/top-social-networking-sites-people-are-using-3486554

https://smallbiztrends.com/2016/05/popular-social-media-sites.html

But, hey, keep harping on how Facebook is a monopoly while not understanding what constitutes either a monopoly or a competitor (or even a social media site at this point). Also, feel free to continue to ignore the fact that you, as a self professed "conservative" want the govt to step in and regulate how a private business manages the content they choose to allow on their own site per their own terms and conditions.

At this point, I can only assume you just want to argue and you don't care about looking silly or you really are this naïve and out of touch on this subject.

so, hey:

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"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_schreech
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _schreech »

Water Dog wrote:
schreech wrote:...to try to distract from the fact that you think the govt should step in and force a private business to be a "free speech" platform for any crackpot that can create a FREE account. You are wrong and will continue to be wrong.

You need to take a step back and breath some fresh air, because I have said no such thing. I am speaking to the principle of the situation, nothing more. They are perfectly within their rights to censor whatever the hell they want for whatever reasons they want. In doing so, however, they are walking a tightrope. If they are perceived to wield power over public discourse that serves to abrogate free speech, they will (rightfully) find themselves under regulatory crosshairs. Which has already happened to a preliminary probing extent. We are witnessing the beginnings of these conversations, which will grow over time.


The slippery slope fallacy is, well, a fallacy and nonsense in this argument. You said that alex jones constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech was infringed upon by Facebook. Who do you think is going to step in to ensure his free speech is not "censored"? Probing? Lol, yea, not going to happen until consumers are negatively affected, you know, the point of anti-trust laws - to protect consumers. Wishful thinking is all you have at this point...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_subgenius
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Re: 1984 in 2018

Post by _subgenius »

schreech wrote:Image
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"Why Not"? , obviously it is because they did not - thanks Schreech.
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