Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

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_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:Well, I know before, when I was defending the Book of Abraham, that I used only partial information. Now that we have the more full witness views and comments, I see little wiggle room for apologists. I also now don't see the discussion occurring much anymore either. That makes sense, since the evidence appears to have now gone the other way against apologetic tendencies.


When you were defending the Book of Abraham you weren't playing with a full deck of cards but had only a limited selection of cards and the game you were playing was based on Nibley's rules. You thought you had a winning hand because of your testimony of the restoration of the gospel. Nibley tried to stack the LDS deck using all manner of deceptive apologetic tricks. You, my friend, were a victim of his abusive form of deceptive scholarship. Indeed, you are a Nibley victim and bear those scars even today. I think it will take a lifetime for you to completely recover from the abuse you suffered at the hands of Nibley, or maybe, not.

LDS apologists today know the Book of Abraham is a tough subject to try and defend. They know it's impossible to defend on any kind of conventional level and are having to rely on purely supernatural explanations steeped in mystery and questions that can never be fully answered in their own lifetimes. That's a painful cause to have to bear. Mystery and suspense can be a painful way to have to believe in something that appears on every level to be out of kilter with logical reasoning.

The LDS church will eventually remove the Facsimiles. It will happen. Then they will deemphasize the translation process and chalk it up as a revelatory exercise in which Smith restored the story of Abraham using Egyptian props to excite his mind and receive teachings from the Spirit through a process of spiritual translations that only a prophet is entitled to experience. But in the end, all of that will directly contradict and counter what Joseph Smith and his companions actually said and taught in their day. The modern LDS church will have to throw the old LDS church under the bus in order to survive.

I appreciate your directive: "Keep quoting Joseph Smith", there is nothing the modern LDS church can do or say to change what he said. All they can do is ignore it or try and twist his words in order to vindicate their testimonies.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Kishkumen »

Philo Sofee wrote:I asked several of you for your comments and critiques for the first chapter of my book, you know who you are, and I THANK YOU publically for all your wonderful criticisms, ideas, suggestions, and help. Since it's not going to see the light of day anytime soon, I decided to post the first chapter because it has, I think, important evidence that Joseph Smith did claim to have a literal 3500 year old Abraham autograph. Yes it's embarrassing to apologists today who now know the actual Egyptology says this will never do. So they try mightily to save Joseph Smith. It doesn't work. I have very good evidence for this in this chapter, and I see no reason not to share it with you here. It could end up being useful when this argument crops up as it does from time to time.
http://drpepaw.wixsite.com/backyardprof ... e-Evidence


Hauglid's book provides ample evidence that Joseph Smith told others he had an Abraham autograph. Case closed on that one. Good for you to bring that to wider attention.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:Hauglid's book provides ample evidence that Joseph Smith told others he had an Abraham autograph. Case closed on that one.


In simple terms, modern LDS apologists don't believe Joseph Smith or take what he said at face value. The saints in Smith's day believed the prophet and took what he said at face value. Modern apologists throw Joseph Smith under the bus and reject his claims and refuse to believe him. Apologists are inventing a fantasy.
_Philo Sofee
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Philo Sofee »

Apologists cannot afford anymore to take Joseph Smith at face value, nor accept what he said about lots of things for several reasons. The internet for one. Science for another. The astronomy is all messed up, the ideas of creation are warped because Joseph kept the Bronze Age thinking imagining it really was actually the real way things occurred. It is quite a spectacle indeed these days!

By the way, the thread up in the Celestial on your masterful response to FAIRMormon on Facsimile 3 was absolutely POWERFUL! I had no idea you had done that in 2013. THAT is the manner in which you will show apologetics is just an oversoaked wet sponge.
Dr CamNC4Me
"Dr. Peterson and his Callithumpian cabal of BYU idiots have been marginalized by their own inevitable irrelevancy defending a fraud."
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:By the way, the thread up in the Celestial on your masterful response to FAIRMormon on Facsimile 3 was absolutely POWERFUL! I had no idea you had done that in 2013. THAT is the manner in which you will show apologetics is just an oversoaked wet sponge.


Thank you for those kind words.
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _ClarkGoble »

sock puppet wrote:
Shulem wrote:Regrettably, Clark Goble never answered the questions. Perhaps he thought they were rhetorical?

Maybe he wised up like other TBMs whose faith was about to die on the Book of Abraham hill, and disengaged from the issue permanently.


Or maybe he just has a life and a job and posting here isn't his highest priority. A bit less snark and a bit more charity might be in order. Forums aren't that important in the scheme of life.

If there's something I missed I'll try to get to it when I'm able.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Kishkumen »

ClarkGoble wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Maybe he wised up like other TBMs whose faith was about to die on the Book of Abraham hill, and disengaged from the issue permanently.


Or maybe he just has a life and a job and posting here isn't his highest priority. A bit less snark and a bit more charity might be in order. Forums aren't that important in the scheme of life.

If there's something I missed I'll try to get to it when I'm able.


Yes, they aren't. sock puppet hasn't posted in quite a while. Maybe he has a life and a job too.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _Shulem »

ClarkGoble wrote:If there's something I missed I'll try to get to it when I'm able.


Don't sweat it, no problem, but when you get a chance just answer the following:

Shulem wrote:My question for you, Clark, is rather simple. Take into consideration everything you know about the saga of the Book of Abraham and suppose you could step into a time machine and go back to Nauvoo when the Times & Seasons first published the Book of Abraham. Suppose you could go back in time and meet Joseph Smith. What question(s) would you have for him regarding the Explanation of Fig. 2. in Facsimile No. 3?
_ClarkGoble
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _ClarkGoble »

Shulem wrote:Take into consideration everything you know about the saga of the Book of Abraham and suppose you could step into a time machine and go back to Nauvoo when the Times & Seasons first published the Book of Abraham. Suppose you could go back in time and meet Joseph Smith. What question(s) would you have for him regarding the Explanation of Fig. 2. in Facsimile No. 3?


Maybe it's just my background in philosophy and interest in epistemology, but were I to ask questions of him regarding the facsimiles, the questions I'd ask would be:

1. Did he think the Hor scroll held the text of the Book of Abraham. (I recognize there's evidence for that, but I'd like a clear answer from him as to his understanding)

2. Why did he think the Hor scroll held the text of the Book of Abraham? That is, explicitly what did he think God told him and what was due to his inferences. Getting that distinction between revelation and inference would be my #1 focus in questioning. It seems to me that while that's more clear early in history it tends to start blurring by the mid 1830's and certainly by Nauvoo.

3. Did he think anyone else could translate Egyptian? If so, what did he think would happen if they disagreed with his translation.

4. I'd ask about the U&T/seer stones and the basic epistemological question of when he saw something in them (or by revelation) how could he differentiate, if he could at all, questions about historic origins, from questions about the text, from questions about corrupt translation. More or less my questions about the difference between surface level reproductions verses meaning versus reference. (My guess is that he hadn't even considered these issues, but I'd love to know)

5. I'd then ask him whether he thought the original meaning of the vignettes was as an illustration for the text or whether it was just used as such.

6. Finally I'd ask him when he talks about something written, whether in fac 3 or fac 2 does he think that's what hieroglyphics say or merely that the hieroglyphics identify the figure. That is, does he think the hieroglyphics represent the use or the literal sense of the terms.

I'd then of course have a ton of questions about the Alphabet and Grammar and so forth.
_grindael
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Re: Joseph Smith & a LITERAL 3500 Year Old Abraham Autograph

Post by _grindael »

I have some questions for Santa Claus...

1. How do your Reindeer fly?
2. How to you fit down all those chimneys?
3. Are there really little elves that make all those toys?
4. Where do you really live at the North Pole?
5. Where did the elves come from?
6. How do you know if anyone's been good or bad?
7. How do you fit all those toys in your bag?
8. How are only eight Reindeer able to tow all the world's toys?
9. Is there a Mrs. Claus?
10. If you are married, was your wife one of those elves?

Bonus question: Do you really like milk and cookies?
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
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