A taste of Prager U

[_EAllusion]

You think being a rapist is mutually exclusive with being a professor? That's a novel position. Is it also exclusive with founding a University? Because Jefferson is the founder of the University of Virginia.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

You think being a rapist is mutually exclusive with being a professor? That's a novel position. Is it also exclusive with founding a University? Because Jefferson is the founder of the University of Virginia.

I love how you love how to tell people what they think! That said, I do in fact think many, many, many professors are degenerates who use their positions to score some strange. In Jefferson's case I was struck by the similarities between him and Joseph Smith Jr., and how ready seemingly reasonable people excuse their behavior.

It's hilarious how you and Honor are doubling down on this one. Crazy.

- Doc

[_canpakes]

It's cool that this thread moves so briskly. I miss a day and get two new pages to read.

I'm further shocked that you'd use them mid-thread that discusses things such as White privilege that is 100% intolerant of nuance other than it exists and White males are guilty of enjoying it,

Your phrasing here is key, I think, with Ceeboo's (and many others) discomfort with the concept. You use the word, guilty. You are no more guilty of enjoying white privilege as you are guilty of enjoying having been born in the US. Both are a status that exists whether or not you (in the general sense) personally exist. You can't feel guilty about it (or, it's a foolish choice to do so, anyway); there was no choice involved in being within that class.

Both the radical right and radical left take the concept and seek to poison it with their own characterizations. The radical left seeks to use the concept to invalidate any concern, want or need of the privileged white class in favor of its own needs or agenda, and the far right seeks to accuse legitimate aspects of privilege as mere victimization, while also introducing the guilt characterization to create backlash amongst the general white population while simultaneously mounting their own victimization campaign of how White America is now the underprivileged underdog of society, rapidly being stripped of its rights.

This extends to American identity where people on the (right) routinely claim they're disaffected and don't relate to being citizens of this country. They view the flag as a symbol of repression, they've been pretty effective at demonizing anyone who doesn't swallow their victim narrative, and they've created a dystopian view of our country where disaffection with our system, our way of life, runs so deep that the only answer to take control in order to rectify what they view as the historic wrongs done against them or whoever they assigned victim status to. This will lead to inevitable collapses of virtually every functioning private and public sector because they're ill equipped to run anything.

How can someone who is constantly wronged, a victim of reality itself, and hates the very thing that gives them the freedoms they enjoy ever identify with it? They can't. They reject it and that will lead to chaos and poverty. They, of course, will never see it that way nor would they ever admit to being wrong when crap goes sideways, always looking to displace blame and accountability onto vast undefinable things that change to suit their need to be right and to be wronged.

I changed one word in this, to demonstrate how it will describe alt-right nationalist sympathizers with just as much - if not more - accuracy, right on down to feeling repressed by the flag of The Nation, which they would eschew in favor of the Stars and Bars, or any number of nationalist designs.

An interesting contrast between far left and far right here is that the left might seek to introduce new factors into the fabric of society while still doing so under the banner of 'America', whereas the far right oftentimes seeks a future in fracturing the nation into smaller components that groups can then fashion into their own preferred version of society, none of which necessarily hew too closely to what a common contemporary understanding of 'America' might be.

Which leads to a certain question - just what is the national identity of the United States? How is that defined?

[_EAllusion]

You think being a rapist is mutually exclusive with being a professor? That's a novel position. Is it also exclusive with founding a University? Because Jefferson is the founder of the University of Virginia.

I love how you love how to tell people what they think! That said, I do in fact think many, many, many professors are degenerates who use their positions to score some strange. In Jefferson's case I was struck by the similarities between him and Joseph Smith Jr., and how ready seemingly reasonable people excuse their behavior.

It's hilarious how you and Honor are doubling down on this one. Crazy.

- Doc

I repeated back the argument you just wrote in response to me. That's improperly telling you what you think now? Sure.

Please quote me defending anything related to Jefferson owning slaves or Sally Hemmings. In fact, quote me even bringing it up other than as a negative. Thanks.

[_honorentheos]

In Jefferson's case I was struck by the similarities between him and Joseph Smith Jr., and how ready seemingly reasonable people excuse their behavior.

It's hilarious how you and Honor are doubling down on this one. Crazy.

- Doc

It's interesting that the conversation has seized up on a comment regarding the values at the heart of the debates that led to the founding of the US under the Constitution and become tangled because people in the past did unpleasant things. You wish to take my off-the-cuff comment at the end of a rather lengthy post to argue what kind of people Jefferson or Madison might be if presented with the current arguments, all of which is speculation, then ok. In their time, they represented certain values in the debate that I see as lost today. If you want me to say Jefferson was a terrible person, ok. Jefferson was a terrible person, certainly rotting in hell if there is such a place as are all of the slave owning backwards founding fathers. If there were a Platonic Jefferson free of sin and perfected in the imperfect virtues the mortal Jefferson held who was present in the debates today, I would still maintain the values he would be putting forward in the debate would not be the identity politic values of the conservative Christian nor the antimaterialist socialist vegen. It would be modernized enlightenment values of individual liberty made achievable through equality of opportunity and diversity of opinions.

It's a strange phenomena of modern American politics that the process keeps good people from seeking office, corrupts those who gain it, and the electorate is awash with complaints of the quality of people who represent us...politically and literally I would say.

It still hangs on the issues involved with how both sides can clearly see the splinters in the eyes of the other side while being blind to their own. The remedy, in my opinion, includes a refocus on the central, umbrella values those three (equality of opportunity, diversity of opinion, and inclusivness) represent. If that were to occur, perhaps we'd see fewer people thinking the divide is unbridgeable. So long as we view American Values as synonymous with limited identity values, OTOH, it WILL be unbridgeable because there is no America and a future where everyone is either reinventing the '50s suburban fictional WASPish utopia that seems to be the hinted at promised land of MAGA, or the Zanadu future of the extreme left where all hold everything in common and love keeps everyone doing the obvious right thing all the time...as soon as we can get rid of the people who don't.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm just amused you'd choose to use a slave-owning, adulterous, pederast as an example. That's all. Feel free to move on or, I dunno, keep dissembling. I don't feel any particular allegiance to a founding father, or Confederate traitor, or 19th century religious lecher, all of which would serve nicely as example of stand-up guys if you were just able to transport them to our era and brief 'em up real quick. Lol.

Seriously. I have no idea why you keep going, but you do you.

Lest we get too distracted I want to remind the gentle reader EA asserted presumably white people are trying to suppress the vote in Georgia, rather than closing stations for legitimate reasons, but he thus far couldn't answer these very simple questions with easily attainable answers (I suspect he doesn't internet very well):

How many polling stations have been closed across Georgia?

Where are they all located?

How many have been opened?

How many are there in total?

I could throw him a bone and show him voter registration, in particular Black voter registration, is up significantly since Trump took office, but I believe his already puckered arse would create a singularity if I were to do so, and I can't risk a literal black hole being formed here on Earth.

- Doc

[_honorentheos]

I'm just amused you'd choose to use a slave-owning, adulterous, pederast as an example.

It seems we both find the other's behavior amusing given you so quickly made a move I would expect from the kind of people you typically seem to disparage but as you said, you do you. It seemed you thought it was a chance to score a quick point in a game you are playing and moved on it. So yeah, I guess touche.

Lest we get too distracted I want to remind the gentle reader EAllusion asserted presumably white people are trying to suppress the vote in Georgia, rather than closing stations for legitimate reasons, but he thus far couldn't answer these very simple questions with easily attainable answers (I suspect he doesn't internet very well):

How many polling stations have been closed across Georgia?

Where are they all located?

How many have been opened?

How many are there in total?

- Doc

You keep bringing this up as if there is a clear purpose to it other than one expects you want to argue that whatever the number it is sufficient for anyone who wants to vote to be able to do so. It ignores the salient issues around what is going on in Georgia, though, including the attempt to close 7 of 9 stations in a black majority county. And that this is one of a number of counties where this move was recommended by a consultant who was tasked by the Secretary of State to find polls that could be closed; that the Secretary of State also happens to be the Republican candidate for Governor; that the consultant has looked at predominantly black voting precincts; and that the ADA compliance issue was suggested by the consultant to these counties as a justified way of closing them; all immediately before a midterm election where the Democrat candidate for governor is a black women who is very likely to get a lot of support from those precincts where the polls are being closed or suggested for closure.

So you're cool with that?

[_canpakes]

It ignores the salient issues around what is going on in Georgia, though, including the attempt to close 7 of 9 stations in a black majority county. And that this is one of a number of counties where this move was recommended by a consultant who was tasked by the Secretary of State to find polls that could be closed; that the Secretary of State also happens to be the Republican candidate for Governor; that the consultant has looked at predominantly black voting precincts; and that the ADA compliance issue was suggested by the consultant to these counties as a justified way of closing them; all immediately before a midterm election where the Democrat candidate for governor is a black women who is very likely to get a lot of support from those precincts where the polls are being closed or suggested for closure.

A final decision on action is supposed to be rendered on the 24th. It’ll be interesting if they end up not closing these stations; if they were supposedly needing to be shut down for not being ADA compliant, then how would that status have changed to allow them to remain open?

[_honorentheos]

The way I understand it, the board only has two current members since one stepped down and they may postpone the vote.

[_Ceeboo]

Which leads to a certain question - just what is the national identity of the United States? How is that defined?

There was an article in Newsweek, by Ben Shapiro, that in my opinion speaks to this. To be fair - It shouldn't be surprising that I, being politically conservative, would share the opinions given by Shapiro, who is also politically conservative. So there is that - but I do think it offers at least one answer to the complex questions above.

Anyway - Here is his opinion piece (made blue by me to show that the words are not mine - but a Shapiro article.)


Are Democrats proud of being American? This sounds like a loaded question—who wouldn’t be proud of being American? But according to a new poll, there’s a serious dearth of pride among Democrats about the country. Gallup reports that just 32 percent of Democrats call themselves “extremely proud” of their national identity, compared with 74 percent of Republicans who say the same.

But that makes sense, doesn’t it? After all, President Trump is wildly unpopular among Democrats—and with someone the Democrats consider disgraceful at the head of government, they can be expected to feel ashamed. And by contrast, Republicans only feel proud because Trump is president. After all, weren’t they ashamed when Obama was president?

Actually, the answer is no. When Obama was president, a solid supermajority of Republicans still said they were extremely proud to be American—68 percent in 2016. In 2016, when Obama was president, only 45 percent of Democrats said they were extremely proud to be American. So the massive gap in pride isn’t president-dependent. It’s purely ideological.

And that raises a far more significant question: why are so many Democrats uneasy about expressing pride for their country? It wasn’t always that way. JFK routinely spoke in glowing terms about America—in ringing, patriotic tones that modern Democrats could easily dismiss as jingoistic.

Something has been lost among Democrats. Perhaps it’s a sense of national mission. More likely, it’s a sense of national goodness. Republicans tend to tell the American story in one way, Democrats in another. Republicans see the story of America as that of a nation conceived in freedom but flawed in its implementation of it—a nation constantly striving to live up to its founding vision. Thus, Republicans are more comfortable with the approach of Martin Luther King Jr., who espoused the perfection of the American covenant, than that of Malcolm X, who spoke of the unfixable flaws of the American system.

Democrats, by contrast, see America as a country founded in slavery and bigotry, in repression and greed, perfected over time through public action. For Republicans, the Civil War was an attempt to live up to the Constitution’s ideals; for Democrats, the Civil War was an attempt to rewrite the Constitution entirely. For Republicans, racism is a horrible part of our past and present, but we can work to rise above it; for Democrats, racism is a part of our American DNA, as Barack Obama put it.

When Obama was president in 2016, 68 percent of Republicans said they were extremely proud to be American, but only 45 percent of Democrats said they were extremely proud to be American.

This has significant ramifications in terms of patriotic feeling. Republicans are proud of the country no matter who is president because when they think of America, they think of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, of Steve Jobs and Ronald Reagan; Democrats are only proud when the president is a Democrat, because when they think of America, they think of John C. Calhoun and Jim Crow, of Harvey Weinstein and Rodney King.

Thus, Republicans and Democrats teach their children differently. Symbols of America make Republicans proud; they make Democrats a bit more trepidatious, as a general rule. One Harvard study found that children who attended just one July Fourth celebration before age 18 were four percent more likely to vote Republican, and two percent more likely to identify as conservative. As study authors David Yanagizawa-Drott and Andreas Madestam wrote, “Fourth of July celebrations in the United States shape the nation’s political landscape by forming beliefs and increasing participation, primarily in favor of the Republican Party.”

Democrats think Donald Glover’s "This is America" is America. Republicans think Lee Greenwood’s "God Bless The USA is America."

That gap isn’t likely to be bridged anytime soon, which is why tensions are running so high right now. It’s an old saw in politics that both sides want the same thing, just by different means. That’s not so obvious. Republicans want an America in line with founding ideals and myths; Democrats want an America that rejects those founding ideals and myths. Those are two very different countries indeed.

Yeah - like many of his opinion pieces, they are most certainly written with a pen that slants heavily to the right (No different than the opinion pieces written by those who use pens that slant just as heavily to the left) - but even with that understanding, generally speaking, I thought his article was a worthy starting point to see where the discussions go - or don't go.