How do you forecast for November?

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_subgenius
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _subgenius »

Xenophon wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:I've come to doubt very much what I think will happen in elections. It's occurred to me that I have no idea what appeals to people or how they think. What seems like an obvious choice is clearly not obvious to everyone else.
I think the problem is really just dealing with the black swans in these kinds of things. How could any of us possibly have predicted Comey's heavy influence on the outcome of 2016? The best you can do is look at polling, historical applications, and current trends and hope that no crazy outside impacter veers you way off course.

The interesting (read as frighting) part of this midterm is we will be testing just how heavily the structuring of the current system favors Republicans. There is more than an outside chance that Democrats heavily over-perform on the general ballot and still don't wind up with a "win".

if you recall, I predicted 2016 and I did not from Comey but from the obvious difference in the size of crowds between the Trump / Hillary rallies. And to this date mist post mortem agree that Comey had little influence. Hillary's campaign strategy missteps and unlikable persona dooms her well before Comey's sideshow.
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_moksha
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _moksha »

The Democrats are hoping to pull voters out of the woodwork and the Republicans are counting on their time-honored strategy of fooling enough people to pull out a win.

I'm guessing that people can be fooled much easier than being pulled out of the woodwork.
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_Ceeboo
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _Ceeboo »

Given the current political hysterias, divisiveness and toxicity - Making political forecasts for November would be like forecasting the number of people who will be ordering a small coffee with triple sugar at a specific Burger King on November 22nd between 7am and 7:12am.

In other words, I have no freaking idea. I guess we will all find out soon enough though.
_subgenius
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _subgenius »

moksha wrote:The Democrats are hoping to pull voters out of the woodwork and the Republicans are counting on their time-honored strategy of fooling enough people to pull out a win.

I'm guessing that people can be fooled much easier than being pulled out of the woodwork.

I hear John McCain is now a registered Democrat voter...woodwork be darned!
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
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_Xenophon
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _Xenophon »

subgenius wrote:if you recall, I predicted 2016 and I did not from Comey but from the obvious difference in the size of crowds between the Trump / Hillary rallies. And to this date mist post mortem agree that Comey had little influence. Hillary's campaign strategy missteps and unlikable persona dooms her well before Comey's sideshow.
The fact that your prediction happened to work out doesn't lend any credence to the methodology. There was a pretty strong belief that Romney's crowd size meant he would win as well and that it was cause for panic for the Obama campaign. As an aside to this idea, almost all of the conspiracy theorist I've talked to or read who believe Obama "vote stole" his way to victory in 2012 start their argument by pointing to crowd size. Crowd size is basically just a political meme at this point... but keep making guesses of that I suppose.

Although the race prior to the release of The Letter was very close we can actually see the statistical impact of if on her campaign. She was up by 6 points nationally prior to release and in a similar position in several swing states she would wind up losing. Within a week of the news story breaking there was roughly a 3% decline in her standing at the polls. It doesn't take much of a mathematician to note that if you lost a state by less than 1% and an event that took place negatively impacted your standing by 1% at a minimum and in some polls up to 6% that probably had something to do with your defeat.

This isn't to give Clinton a pass, she probably should have been in a better position to start with and you to do have a point that her EC strategy was not the best we've seen. But to deny the statistical significance of an event we can so easily measure is laughable.

by the way, part of the reason so many of those media postmortems downplay or deny the Comey letter may have something to do with how they chose to cover it. For what turned out to be a big ol' nothing burger, the media (left, right and center) hyped it to the ends and back. The media admitting that Comey's actions and "WAT BOUT DA EMAILZ!!!" was a major part of Clinton's downfall is essentially admitting that they unwittingly assisted in that, something they aren't likely to do.

For a considerably more in-depth look into the role the media played in all this, with a final breakdown of how meaningful Comey's actions were I'd highly recommend Nate Silver's The Real Story of 2016 which culminates in The Comey Letter Probably Cost Clinton The Election.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
_EAllusion
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _EAllusion »

John Kerry had larger crowd sizes than George W. Bush. On the eve of the election he had a rally in Madison that was attended by an ocean of people. (Somewhere around 100k).

Yet I am having a hard time remembering the President Kerry years.

Also, what’s subs explanation for political scientists and political data journalists like Nate Silver and Nate Cohn not figuring out his rock solid forecasting method?
_Kevin Graham
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Did subs predict an Obama win in 2008 and 2012 based on his crowd gatherings?

Somehow I doubt it. When your world view is stuck on either red or black, you're bound to get a hit once in a while. But as he just said, he was right about 2016, but as EA pointed out, he was right for all the wrong reasons.
_subgenius
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _subgenius »

Xenophon wrote:
subgenius wrote:if you recall, I predicted 2016 and I did not from Comey but from the obvious difference in the size of crowds between the Trump / Hillary rallies. And to this date mist post mortem agree that Comey had little influence. Hillary's campaign strategy missteps and unlikable persona dooms her well before Comey's sideshow.
The fact that your prediction happened to work out doesn't lend any credence to the methodology.

it also doesn't discount it...besides my response was a rebuttal to your flawed assertion, so methodology credence wasn't a requirement for effectively disputing your claim.
Nevertheless, it has equal credence to your using the 528 post mortem of "it couldn't have possibly been Hillary's fault".
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_subgenius
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _subgenius »

Kevin Graham wrote:Did subs predict an Obama win in 2008 and 2012 based on his crowd gatherings?

Somehow I doubt it. When your world view is stuck on either red or black, you're bound to get a hit once in a while. But as he just said, he was right about 2016, but as EA pointed out, he was right for all the wrong reasons.

You doubt anything that doesn't support your predispositions.
And yeah, I predicted 2008, but honestly fell short in 2012 because I let reason influence that prophecy...I underestimated the stupidity and organization of Obama 2nd term voters.

And being "right for the wrong reasons" is something that losers always say...take your sour grapes elsewhere.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams
If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
_Xenophon
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Re: How do you forecast for November?

Post by _Xenophon »

subgenius wrote:it also doesn't discount it...besides my response was a rebuttal to your flawed assertion, so methodology credence wasn't a requirement for effectively disputing your claim.
Nevertheless, it has equal credence to your using the 528 post mortem of "it couldn't have possibly been Hillary's fault".
You're right, I didn't clarify "prediction" enough to avoid your usual pedantry so allow me to expand:

No one, with any degree of repeatability, could have pointed to a black-swan-like event that would have such a tremendous (and easily measurable) impact on the outcome of the election. If I need a guess not much better than placing the two candidates name on a cow pie bingo board I'll be sure to call you.

Also, if you read any of my linked postmortem and thought Nate Silver placed no blame at the feet of Clinton than I'm starting to understand your participation around here a bit more. I know you're just kinda doing your normal shtick here but I think you're capable of more.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
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