Sexism at the US Open

[_EAllusion]

No, I don't. When you said I took your comment out of context, I quoted your ENTIRE post and re-made my point. If you would like to respond by talking about yourself, how you feel, or how you would like to be interpreted, or even respond to my point, feel free, but stop telling me what it is I did, because you are incorrect.

Let me rephrase my rephrasing. You, at several points, quoted segments of my post that cut off the context that would've corrected the misreading that you offered in reaction to those segments. It is true that you did quote my full post at one point. That's not what I'm referring to though. I don't know how to be any more clear, so I'll leave it at that.

Please talk about the topic instead of attempting personal insults.

That's certainly advice I wish certain people would follow.

[_Lemmie]

[
No, I don't. When you said I took your comment out of context, I quoted your ENTIRE post and re-made my point. If you would like to respond by talking about yourself, how you feel, or how you would like to be interpreted, or even respond to my point, feel free, but stop telling me what it is I did, because you are incorrect.

Let me rephrase my rephrasing. You, at several points, quoted segments of my post that cut off the context that would've corrected the misreading that you offered in reaction to those segments. It is true that you did quote my full post at one point. That's not what I'm referring to though. I don't know how to be any more clear, so I'll leave it at that.

No, I didn't. I responded once, you objected I only quoted part of your post, so then I posted your entire post, and re-phrased.

That's it. I did not, "at several points quote segments of [your] post that cut off the context."

Stop lying about my posting.

[_EAllusion]

Stop lying about my posting.

You are an odd one. This is far from the first time this kind of thing has happened.

Your initial post reacted to a part missing context. I said so. You quoted the entire post, then again isolated a snippet of it and reacted to it with a misreading that plainly missed context present in the full post. That's objectively what happened. I'm not lying. I suggested you stop doing that. Then when I tried to point out that my self-described intuitive reaction was based on intuition, you seemingly sarcastically mocked that because sure, why not. And this all seems to be based on the fact that I suggested something that might-could maybe-possibly be seen as describing the ump as not being sexist. Can't have that.

[_Lemmie]

Stop lying about my posting.

You are an odd one. This is far from the first time this kind of thing has happened.

Your initial post reacted to a part missing context. I said so. You quoted the entire post, then again isolated a snippet of it and reacted to it with a misreading that plainly missed context present in the full post. That's objectively what happened. I'm not lying. I suggested you stop doing that. Then when I tried to point out that my self-described intuitive reaction was based on intuition, you seemingly sarcastically mocked that because sure, why not. And this all seems to be based on the fact that I suggested something that might-could maybe-possibly be seen as describing the ump as not being sexist. Can't have that.

Yes, people are quite aware that every time you can't stand being wrong, making a mistake, or being disagreed with, this happens.

STOP LYING ABOUT MY POSTING.

[_EAllusion]

STOP LYING ABOUT MY POSTING.

I'm not lying. Read better. Get a grip. Not necessarily in that order.

[_Lemmie]

For me, I'm just not sure that there is enough evidence to know definitively if Ramos ruled as he did out of sexism or just his general nit-picky ahole nature. However, due to the rampant sexism throughout tennis generally, I'm fine with this being the catalyst for discussing and addressing the problem (hopefully).

It isn't unlike how I'm less sympathetic towards some of the "milder" cases of sexual harassment being caught up in the #metoo backlash along with the more serious abusers. It probably isn't entirely fair to lump them all together but these kinds of historical corrections often catch up others in their wake.

I know, Ramos seems to be caught up in the bigger argument about sexism. He has made some comments:

But speaking to Tribuna Expresso in his native country, Ramos indicated he was at peace with his decisions because he didn’t pick and choose when to apply the rule book.

“I’m fine, given the circumstances,” he said. “It’s a delicate situation, but a la carte arbitration does not exist. Do not worry about me!”

the USTA head had some comments about the gender differences:

US Tennis Association head Katrina Adams can’t be thrilled about facing Ramos so soon after siding with Williams in the wake of the match.

“We watch the guys do this all the time, they’re badgering the umpire on the changeovers. Nothing happens. There’s no equality,” Adams told ESPN. “There has to be some consistency across the board. These are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks.”
https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/te ... 14f72d57d9

[_Lemmie]

STOP LYING ABOUT MY POSTING.

I'm not lying. Read better. Get a grip. Not necessarily in that order.

Your personal comments are inappropriate.

STOP LYING ABOUT MY POSTING.

[_Lemmie]

To continue the article I referred to above, there is an interesting take on the situation from the umpire's side:

Ramos was supported — albeit belatedly — by the International Tennis Federation (ITF), who said he acted with “professionalism and integrity” while the Women’s Tennis Association had earlier backed Williams’ claims that she received unfair treatment.

But the ITF have further shown their support by putting Ramos in charge of the Davis Cup semi-final, which will be played this weekend in Zadar.

It comes after a source told The Times some umpires are considering refusing to officiate matches involving Williams in the wake of her attack on Ramos.

Ramos, 47, was “thrown to the wolves for simply doing his job and was not willing to be abused for it,” one anonymous umpire told the English paper.

Australian former umpire Richard Ings also reported feelings of unrest. “The umpiring fraternity is thoroughly disturbed at being abandoned by the WTA,” Ings told ESPN.com.

“They are all fearful that they could be the next Ramos. They feel that no one has their back when they have to make unpopular calls.”

https://www.news.com.au/sport/tennis/te ... 14f72d57d9

[_honorentheos]

For me, I'm just not sure that there is enough evidence to know definitively if Ramos ruled as he did out of sexism or just his general nit-picky ahole nature. However, due to the rampant sexism throughout tennis generally, I'm fine with this being the catalyst for discussing and addressing the problem (hopefully).

Given the number of stories that came out right before this, I think you're on to the bigger point here, Xeno. There is clearly a discussion and change that needs to happen in tennis.

I don't watch tennis, though, and have never followed it as a professional sport. My experience is limited to sporadic casual play that screws up my racquetball swing. So it's hard to have a real opinion on the specifics of this last incident between the umpire and Serena Williams that could be called informed. Having played sports, coached youth soccer and refereed soccer as well I have a personal bias towards people who complain to refs about bad calls. I've had a view that refs are part of the field, literally and figurative, so to throw a fit about a call is as ridiculous as to shout at the ground because you tripped.

One experience in particular really soured me towards that kind of mindset. We had a guy on a rec soccer league who would stop playing and follow the ref around after he felt he was the victim of a bad call. It meant we were playing a person down while he threw his tantrum AND inevitably would get a penalty at some point. And it became clear the refs in that league all came to hate him. We would apologize to them both before and after the game, and the majority of us were on good terms with them having played multiple seasons with them. The head ref pulled the guy who was a team captain aside towards the end of the second season we had the clown on our team, and suggested that we find another player. The thing is, this guy was an excellent, skilled player. But for reasons he simply could not let it go when he thought he was being slighted by a ref.

So when I read about the Williams incident, that her coach admitted he was giving her hand signals that the umpire saw and called out as the original foul, her reaction to the call, and the uproar that surrounds it, it's hard to push down my innate bias against what I perceive as bad sportsmanship. It was a call, crap happens. Take it out on the other team and win despite the bad call.

[_Xenophon]

So when I read about the Williams incident, that her coach admitted he was giving her hand signals that the umpire saw and called out as the original foul, her reaction to the call, and the uproar that surrounds it, it's hard to push down my innate bias against what I perceive as bad sportsmanship. It was a call, crap happens. Take it out on the other team and win despite the bad call.

You raise some good points, Honor. You've said nothing to contradict this but it is important to highlight that it is possible to believe all parties behaved poorly here.

One of the things that I think is hard to grasp if you don't watch tennis much is just how inconsistently the code of conduct is enforced. Line calls, foot faults and the like are relatively straightforward at this high level of play (primarily due to electronic assistance and the factual nature of the call) but it is frustrating to watch a player get called for coaching when the rule is defined so broadly as to be laughably subjective. Peter Bodo over at ESPN does a really good job encapsulating my thoughts on the matter.

The TL:DR

The confusion -- "mess" might be a better word -- highlighted the weakness in the broadly-written rule. That it was Williams who suffered is ironic because she's never been a promising target for the coaching police. She doesn't even avail herself of the on-court coaching allowed by the WTA at its tour-level events.

Williams takes pride in her ability to navigate difficult moments without looking to see if her coach is tugging at an earlobe or strategically placing his elbow on a handrail, like an erstwhile third-base coach in Major League Baseball.