MeDotOrg wrote:Today was an American nightmare. In some ways this feels a little like the OJ Simpson trial, where guilt or innocence was loaded with a lot of social baggage.
The reason it is a nightmare for me is that I feel something for both sides. If you ask me based upon today what happened, I don't know. And not knowing is not guilty under the rule of law. If you are not sure of the testimony of the accuser or the defendant, the presumption of innocence goes to the defendant.
Kavanaugh has the self-righteousness arrogance of a Catholic school boy who always went along, and has never questioned himself or his values. But you also saw a man understandably exasperated by the way this process has unfolded.
Against that you have the testimony of Dr. Ford, which is both credible and inconsistent. As she herself explained, memory of traumatic events tends to concentrate on select details. But while that inconsistency is understandable within the context of a traumatic event, it makes it difficult to fully corroborate her story. So again, if this were a trial I would have to vote not guilty.
But again, this is not a trial, it is the confirmation hearing of a man who will spend a lifetime on the Supreme Court. Brett Kavanaugh will not go to jail if he is not confirmed. I know this has been an excruciating process, but I really think the proper thing to do would be to have the FBI investigate. It would show the women that the government was taking their accusations seriously, and it would give Kavanaugh a chance to be exonerated not by vote, but by investigation. Kavanaugh's confirmation will always be seen as horribly managed, but I think it would be even worse to not have the FBI fully investigate the charges. The uninvestigated allegations would always be a cloud over Kavanaugh's seat on the bench.
MeDotOrg,
As always, you touch on many great points. Getting Judge to testify by itself would be of interest to me as so much seems to hinge on his being the one other claimed eye witness to the events. My view that his sworn testimony and questioning is necessary was only strengthened by Kavanaugh basically straddling the line between holding his written statement up as proof of there being no sexual assault while also calling Judge's credibility as a witness into question due to his struggles with addiction. When it comes to Judge, Kavanaugh seems to want to have it both ways.
Of tangential note, it's interesting that the dispassionate attempt to find and expose holes in Ford's testimony, and the initial clinical attempt to establish Kavanaugh's legal innocence through Rachel Mitchell were both seen as failures for Republicans that they turned around by going full partisan once Lindsey Graham uncorked the demon. Apparently Republicans taped into Hume - “Reason Is and Ought Only to Be the Slave of the Passions”.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Also, anyone want to wager on how long it takes for a reporter to put out the timeframe for when Judge worked at the grocery store? I'll be surprised if it isn't in the news by this time tomorrow.
ETA: To expand on this, I do think today's testimonies undercut the argument that nothing could be learned from an FBI investigation. Today's questioning revealed Ford was dating a close friend of Kavanaugh's that summer (despite Kavanaugh claiming to not recall knowing Ford though it could be possible they had met...), the details of Judge working at a Safeway sometime around 6 weeks after the event according to Ford, which can be cross-referenced with Judge's book and Kavanaugh's calendars to help put the get-together into timeline, the fleshing out of Kavanaugh's social circle through the very last question Mitchell was allowed to ask before the Senators took over...all of that suggests professional investigators could shed real light on the matter.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
MeDotOrg wrote:But again, this is not a trial, it is the confirmation hearing of a man who will spend a lifetime on the Supreme Court. Brett Kavanaugh will not go to jail if he is not confirmed. I know this has been an excruciating process, but I really think the proper thing to do would be to have the FBI investigate.
To me, this is the most telling fact of the case: he isn't willing to request an investigation.
Yes, it would suck. But if you know you're innocent, and you want the job, why not say the words? Yes, the FBI should investigate. If I were accused of something I didn't do, I would say bring it. Clear my name please.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
MeDotOrg wrote:But again, this is not a trial, it is the confirmation hearing of a man who will spend a lifetime on the Supreme Court. Brett Kavanaugh will not go to jail if he is not confirmed. I know this has been an excruciating process, but I really think the proper thing to do would be to have the FBI investigate.
To me, this is the most telling fact of the case: he isn't willing to request an investigation.
Yes, it would suck. But if you know you're innocent, and you want the job, why not say the words? Yes, the FBI should investigate. If I were accused of something I didn't do, I would say bring it. Clear my name please.
Why would he do that? He knows if the Senate numbers change on November 20th his one shot in life at becoming a Supreme Court justice. He also knows his name is dog crap with the Left no matter what he does.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
MeDotOrg wrote:But again, this is not a trial, it is the confirmation hearing of a man who will spend a lifetime on the Supreme Court. Brett Kavanaugh will not go to jail if he is not confirmed. I know this has been an excruciating process, but I really think the proper thing to do would be to have the FBI investigate.
To me, this is the most telling fact of the case: he isn't willing to request an investigation.
Yes, it would suck. But if you know you're innocent, and you want the job, why not say the words? Yes, the FBI should investigate. If I were accused of something I didn't do, I would say bring it. Clear my name please.
When he started repeating, "I'm innocent, I'm innocent" as Durban pushed him to ask for an investigation I was surprised that it seemed like he was breaking down. It was dramatic to listen to. I'm not sure how it played on TV as I was only listening on headphones but I couldn't help thinking something big may be about to happen...and then Grassley jumped in.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
To clear his name, maybe? You don't think he's got friends that are looking at him a little differently now? Republican friends? Maybe even his own family?
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
honorentheos wrote:When he started repeating, "I'm innocent, I'm innocent" as Durban pushed him to ask for an investigation I was surprised that it seemed like he was breaking down. It was dramatic to listen to. I'm not sure how it played on TV as I was only listening on headphones but I couldn't help thinking something big may be about to happen...and then Grassley jumped in.
I can't remember the specific incident that was, but he was repeating himself to everyone.
One of the most fascinating speeches given by a Republican was Jeff Flake's. He was conspicuously not joining his GOP colleagues in their shenanigans.
ETA: I just watched Durban's interrogation (I hadn't seen it). That was awesome. Exactly the questions I'd ask.
And yeah, Kavanaugh looked like he was losing it. Grassley was pissed.
Last edited by Alf'Omega on Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
honorentheos wrote:When he started repeating, "I'm innocent, I'm innocent" as Durban pushed him to ask for an investigation I was surprised that it seemed like he was breaking down. It was dramatic to listen to. I'm not sure how it played on TV as I was only listening on headphones but I couldn't help thinking something big may be about to happen...and then Grassley jumped in.
I can't remember the specific incident that was, but he was repeating himself to everyone.
I watched it after posting, and Grassley jumped in before Kavanaugh protested his innocence and claimed there was no point in asking the FBI to investigate. So it wasn't Grassley that stopped Durban, Kavanaugh started protesting that the committee was responsible to investigate the claims and all the FBI would do is submit a handful of forms.
Watching it is a different experience. Alyssa Milano appears to be sitting a few rows behind him in line of sight of the camera and constantly leaned into view, and the blond woman to Kavanaugh's left was rolling her eyes at Democrats while nodding whenever a Republican made a point. All of the body language of those in attendance play into how it comes across and that is hardly subtle on either side. Interesting.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Some Schmo wrote:ETA: I just watched Durban's interrogation (I hadn't seen it). That was awesome. Exactly the questions I'd ask.
And yeah, Kavanaugh looked like he was losing it. Grassley was pissed.
Durban hit the right tone, in my opinion, and was the highlight up to when I had to stop listening which was during Lee's questioning. I'll have to check out Flake, too.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
honorentheos wrote:Watching it is a different experience. Alyssa Milano appears to be sitting a few rows behind him in line of sight of the camera and constantly leaned into view, and the blond woman to Kavanaugh's left was rolling her eyes at Democrats while nodding whenever a Republican made a point. All of the body language of those in attendance play into how it comes across and that is hardly subtle on either side. Interesting.
I found myself fixated on his wife for a lot of it. What is going through her mind these days? Did she know about it? Is this all a shock? Or is she absolutely convinced he's innocent? There's no way to tell from her body language. She's just visibly upset.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.