Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Rosebud]

The Trib report accentuates the Nelson/church side mentioning touching parties, the credibility of the Nelson daughter and husband as well as their personal alignment with church values, the police investigations and the implanting of false memories.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/10 ... t-accuses/

[_Rosebud]

Sam should have stopped before the hunger strike.

[_Rosebud]

I would like to know why the Trib took the time to remove my proposed child protection policy from Internet ink. This is the kind of policy that would actually protect Mormon children.

Link to my op-ed, archived by the Trib without the child protection policy included:

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?i ... type=CMSID

PDF of email conversation with the Trib about the printing of my op-ed, including the recommended child protection policy. The Trib put the protection policy on the web and then, later, deleted it from the web:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kaN0 ... sp=sharing

PDF of my op-ed made today (just for the sake of making a pdf):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kaN0 ... sp=sharing

[_Res Ipsa]

So..... a conspiracy is a common action taken by criminals for the objective of benefitting themselves financially or otherwise, depending on the crime committed. And a conspiracy requires that illegal actions have already been taken.

Not quite. The part about "benefitting themselves" isn't really a necessary part of the definition. One could imagine a conspiracy that intends to benefit others. And the single action to advance the conspiracy doesn't have to be an illegal act itself. If I rent a car to be a getaway vehicle for a bank robbery, I've taken the necessary substantial step even though its not illegal to rent a car.

In the case of child abuse, all parties who know of the abuse and don't take actions to stop or prevent it are complicit to the crime and vulnerable to being drawn into a "conspiracy." Those who have also abused children would be especially vulnerable to being drawn into a "conspiracy."

It depends. A person who is coerced into silence has not agreed to the plan, and so would likely not be considered a part of the conspiracy.[/quote]

One of the most difficult narratives I've heard is of women being drawn into the problem through marrying men who then abuse their children and then threaten the women that if they ever say anything, they will go to jail and suffer public social sanctions, too. The women are then coerced into helping their new husbands make the abuse possible. Sometimes the men marry them for the purpose of having babies. Sometimes the women are coerced into being abusive themselves. With enough fear, you can get people to do just about anything.

I don't believe these women would be considered part of a conspiracy.

I do not intend to be sexist with this explanation. I just haven't heard any narratives in which the genders are reversed.

And the teenage perpetrators -- still children and often victims during early childhood themselves. How easy would it be to coerce them into being part of a "conspiracy"?

Again, because those teenagers were coerced, I don't think it's accurate to label them as co-conspirators.

---------

Is the use of the word "conspiracy" to minimize and discredit a sensationalization?

I'm not sure I understand, but I think you may be confusing the terms "conspiracy" and "conspiracy theory." The latter is kind of a term of art for use of the fallacy of argument from ignorance to argue the existence of a conspiracy that is not supported by direct evidence.

[_Lemmie]

I would like to know why the Trib took the time to remove my proposed child protection policy from Internet ink.

What did your trib contact say when you asked them?

[Guest]

Thanks Meadowchick, that one worked.

Having read the complaint, I think the touching parties are more of a distraction than anything. The mother notified her Bishop of the abuse. The preparation was diagnosed as a pedophile. Yet no church discipline. Wife number two relies on the absence of discipline to reject wife one’s warning.

Obviously, the complaint is only part of the story, but if plaintiffs can get past the SOL, this could be pretty interesting.

YW.

It appears to me that testimony against the Miles was not obtained through memory recovery techniques. Could be mistaken. I've also been told that there's more evidence now than thirty years ago.

Nelson just called women to fast from social media for 10 days, but I think this story will have longer legs if the judge doesn't dismiss.

Another social media fast? Did he just ask this yesterday (Saturday) at the relief society general conference meeting?

ResIspa - thanks for summarizing. I have heard some crazy things that have happened under temple sauare and in parts of So Ca years ago... some of it seems exaggerated. Often memories change as certain things are the focus. Yet, some may be valid. Another on ldsff said she grew up sexually abused by her parents who were in a group with church leaders & explained that they tried to hypnotize them to change the memories. So it could be some is imagined and some actual memory.

[_Res Ipsa]

Amore, you're welcome.

[_Rosebud]

Is it possible that organized child abuse is occurring in Mormonism and that -conspirators- are coercing individuals to become complicit to the organized abuse while also protecting themselves through intentionally sensationalizing "Satanic Ritual Abuse," "hypnosis," "recovered memories," "mass hysteria," "false memory -syndrome-," the words "conspiracy theory" etc.

AND

while discrediting qualified professionals who are listening to victims and trying to help

AND

while intentionally using horrifying and and sensational abuse strategies to help ensure children subjected to abuse don't immediately recall it

AND

while intentionally using horrifying and sensational abuse strategies to help ensure that people who later hear the victims' stories of the abuse won't believe the reports because they're too sensational

AND


while hiding behind their own authority, positions and credibility


AND


while it is most certainly true that real false memories do exist, can be implanted, and are sometimes publicly sensationalized therefore further detracting from the credibility of legitimate memories?


OR

Are victims still managing this in 2018 just reporting things because they were affected by the "mass hysteria" of the 1990s?


?????

[_Res Ipsa]

Is it possible that organized child abuse is occurring in Mormonism and that -conspirators- are coercing individuals to become complicit to the organized abuse while also protecting themselves through intentionally sensationalizing "Satanic Ritual Abuse," "hypnosis," "recovered memories," "mass hysteria," "false memory -syndrome-," the words "conspiracy theory" etc.

It's possible that that there is a God and that the LDS church is his one and only true church and that Joseph Smith was an actual prophet and that Russell Nelson is also a true prophet. I'd put the odds of your hypothetical and mine being true as roughly equal. Possible isn't the relevant question. "Does the evidence support the existence of such a conspiracy today? I haven't seen any convincing evidence.[/quote]

AND

while discrediting qualified professionals who are listening to victims and trying to help

The only professional I'm aware of that have been discredited were those who bullied or led children or adults to describe events that didn't happen. Whether those professionals were "trying to help" is to me irrelevant. What they actually did was implant false memories, devastated families, imprisoned innocent people, and helped create a panic over something that wasn't happening.

AND

while intentionally using horrifying and and sensational abuse strategies to help ensure children subjected to abuse don't immediately recall it

The theory of repressed memories has been shown not to be based on how memory actually works. People don't just completely forget traumatic events, only to remember them decades later at the prompting of therapists.

AND

while intentionally using horrifying and sensational abuse strategies to help ensure that people who later hear the victims' stories of the abuse won't believe the reports because they're too sensational

Lots of abusers have been caught and interviewed. How often do they disclose this as a strategy?

AND

while hiding behind their own authority, positions and credibility

Again, data? Evidence?


AND

while it is most certainly true that real false memories do exist, can be implanted, and are sometimes publicly sensationalized therefore further detracting from the credibility of legitimate memories?

Only by people who don't understand what the recovered memory movement was about.


OR

Are victims still managing this in 2018 just reporting things because they were affected by the "mass hysteria" of the 1990s?

What is the evidence for currently occurring mass ritual abuse? Put some evidence out and we can look at it.


?????[/quote]

Yeah, ???? I don't think navel gazing over what is possible is particularly helpful. If you have evidence of organized child abuse within the LDS church that is being covered up in the manner you describe, let's take a look at it and try to figure out what is going on.

[_Maksutov]

Yeah, ???? I don't think navel gazing over what is possible is particularly helpful. If you have evidence of organized child abuse within the LDS church that is being covered up in the manner you describe, let's take a look at it and try to figure out what is going on.

Exactly. It's too important to guess and fumble with it.