Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[Guest]

duplicate posts.... so I deleted one....

[_Rosebud]

I believe sexual abuse happens by church members and some with ties high up in leadership. But I think it’s not as common as some would claim... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p3gZn8-aMRc

The main point is that no matter if it’s family or part of the church - people should be held accountable, and receive help when needed.

Yeah, given the odds, I suspect you’re right.It happens in other organized religions and there’s no reason Mormons would be immune. And I think your bottom line is dead in.

Just followed this link Amore. And ugh. This kind of sensationalization doesn't help. I could only watch for about 10 seconds before I shut it off.

(for what it's worth, YouTube led me to another copy of the same video currently with 142,712 views instead of the 926 found at Amore's link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixHC8lm82Qg)

"Programming"???? I hate it when the stories use that word. Insinuating that a victim is "programmed" or even "programmable" is looked down upon by better professionals. What does it say about a client to believe s/he was "programmed" while being abused? Any therapists saying that have gone too far.

The sensationalization is part of the problem. And therapists getting scared and jumping to false conclusions is part of the problem

To me, the main points are that people should be held accountable, church child protection policies that prevent anything close to any of this craziness should be put in place, and newspapers should report as honestly as possible.

I wonder where Barbara Snow is on all of this......

[_Rosebud]

Here's the abstract to a 1990 article by Snow in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 0005004004

Ritualistic Child Abuse in a Neighborhood Setting
BARBARA SNOW, TEENA SORENSEN
First Published December 1, 1990 Research Article
https://doi.org/10.1177/088626090005004004
Article information
Article has an altmetric score of 1

Abstract

Ritualistic child sexual abuse is a relatively unknown and poorly understood form of child maltreatment. This study describes the common characteristics evident in five cases of ritualistic abuse that occurred in five separate neighborhood settings. The sample consisted of 39 children, from 4 to 17 years of age, who described in clinical interviews at least six elements of ritual abuse. Three distinct components to the abuse were identified: incest, neighborhood juvenile perpetration, and organized adult ritual sex rings. These components operated simultaneously and interacted with one another. Lack of understanding of these separate components led to oversimplification of the problem, inaccurate investigative work, and attempts to discredit victims and therapists. Disclosures were difficult and progressed slowly. The majority of children showed little symptomology at initial referral with significant increases during the disclosure process. Perpetrators involved religious leaders, women, and many juveniles that were considered conscientious, responsible members of their community. This study suggests that ritual abuse in neighborhood settings appears secretive, coercive, and complex.

[_Rosebud]

Here is a webpage that discredits her work:

https://greyfaction.org/how-teal-swans- ... nic-panic/

[_Rosebud]

Here is the Trib's report on her 2008 probation:

http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref ... ci_8332832

[_Rosebud]

Her website:

https://www.bsnowtherapy.com/AboutMe.en.html

[_Rosebud]

Occam's razor or the law of parsimony;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

Occam's razor (also Ockham's razor or Ocham's razor; Latin: lex parsimoniae "law of parsimony") is the problem-solving principle that the simplest solution tends to be the right one. When presented with competing hypotheses to solve a problem, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions. The idea is attributed to William of Ockham (c. 1287–1347), who was an English Franciscan friar, scholastic philosopher, and theologian.

I'm not sure that "it's the therapists' fault" is the simplest explanation for this.

I wonder, if therapists who work with trauma on a regular basis (which to some extent could be close to all of them), felt safe to throw their two cents in regarding this issue without fear for their reputations and careers.... I wonder what they'd say.

Nobody wants to lose their reputation like Barbara Snow did, but.....

Is blaming the therapists really the most simple explanation? Why might some people educated in the behavioral sciences believe smaller parts of this..... maybe not the whole conspiracy theory part.... but pieces of it?

Isn't another relatively simple explanation that assholes are hurting children and trying to make it look more complex than it really is? Since when were crimes so complex that they weren't understandable?

The word "Satan" unnecessarily freaks people out. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but: sensationalization.

[_cinepro]

Here's the abstract to a 1990 article by Snow in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence:

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10. ... 0005004004

Ritualistic Child Abuse in a Neighborhood Setting
BARBARA SNOW, TEENA SORENSEN
First Published December 1, 1990 Research Article
https://doi.org/10.1177/088626090005004004
Article information
Article has an altmetric score of 1

Abstract

Ritualistic child sexual abuse is a relatively unknown and poorly understood form of child maltreatment. This study describes the common characteristics evident in five cases of ritualistic abuse that occurred in five separate neighborhood settings. The sample consisted of 39 children, from 4 to 17 years of age, who described in clinical interviews at least six elements of ritual abuse. Three distinct components to the abuse were identified: incest, neighborhood juvenile perpetration, and organized adult ritual sex rings. These components operated simultaneously and interacted with one another. Lack of understanding of these separate components led to oversimplification of the problem, inaccurate investigative work, and attempts to discredit victims and therapists. Disclosures were difficult and progressed slowly. The majority of children showed little symptomology at initial referral with significant increases during the disclosure process. Perpetrators involved religious leaders, women, and many juveniles that were considered conscientious, responsible members of their community. This study suggests that ritual abuse in neighborhood settings appears secretive, coercive, and complex.

Wow. Thanks for finding that. It's as if someone found a research study on the incidence of Witches in the 1690s by William Stoughton.

I can't believe she actually wrote this:

Disclosures were difficult and progressed slowly. The majority of children showed little symptomology at initial referral with significant increases during the disclosure process.

[_Rosebud]

Yeah....

I was struck by the perception of "oversimplification" and "complexity."

Three distinct components to the abuse were identified: incest, neighborhood juvenile perpetration, and organized adult ritual sex rings. These components operated simultaneously and interacted with one another. Lack of understanding of these separate components led to oversimplification of the problem...

This study suggests that ritual abuse in neighborhood settings appears secretive, coercive, and complex.

I'm thinking the therapists freaked out and let it get too complex in their own heads. It's a lame crime. Their belief in Mormonism probably didn't help... it probably made them take the whole "Satan" thing too seriously. They were listening to stories from people I assume were terrified and traumatized. Terrified, traumatized people tend to be expressing a lot of fear and emotion. And the terrified, traumatized people were probably -- very justifiably -- jumping to a lot of false conclusions. The therapists needed to keep steadier heads.

But, considering the stories it sounds like the therapists were hearing and some of the behaviors they were observing, it's not surprising that they lost their wits a bit (or a lot). That would be scary.

I tend to think that most social workers are good people trying to make a difference in the world. None of them probably got into the profession to run into this kind of thing. They were probably beside themselves and did a really poor job of putting the "clues" together. And, again, I doubt their belief in Mormonism helped much.

But hey.... how about a chlld protection policy that would make it really really difficult for predators to use church communities to do this kind of thing? Seems a simple solution... why don't we have it 30 years later?

[_Rosebud]

Here's an interesting document:

"An Investigator's Guide to Allegations of "Ritual" Child Abuse"

January 1992

Kenneth V. Lanning
Supervisory Special Agent
Behavioral Science Unit
National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime
Federal Bureau of Investigation
FBI Academy
Quantico, Vlrginia 22135

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitiz ... 2NCJRS.pdf

Satanism: A "New" Form of "Stranger Danger

In today's version of "stranger danger," it is the Satanic devil worshipers who are snatching and
victimizing the children. Many who warned us in the early 1980s about pedophiles snatching ftfty
thousand kids a year now contend they were wrong only about who was doing the kidnapping, not about
the number abducted. This is again the desire for the simple and clear-cut explanation for a complex
problem.

For those who know anything about criminology, one of the oldest theories of crime is demonology:
The devil makes you do it. This makes it even easier to deal with the child molester who is the "pillar
of the community." It is not his fault, it is not OUI fault. There is no way we could have known, the devil
made him do it. This explanation has tremendous appeal because, like "stranger danger," it presents the
clear-cut, black-and-white struggle between good and evil as the explanation for child abduction,
exploitation, and abuse. .

In regard to Satanic "ritual" abuse, today we may not be where we were with incest in the 1960s, but
where we were with missing children in the early 1980s. The best data now available (the 1990
National Incidence Studies on Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children in America)
estimate the number of stereotypical child abductions at between 200 and 300 a year and the number of
stranger abduction homicides of children at between 43 and 147 a year. Approximately half of the
abducted children are teenagers. Today's facts are significantly different from yesterday's perceptions and
those who exaggerated the problem, however well-intentioned, have lost credibility and damaged the
reality of the problem.

And this:

All of this is complicated by the fact that almost any discussion of satanism and the occult is
interpreted in the light of the religious beliefs of those in the audience. Faith, not logic and reason,
governs the religious beliefs of most people. As a result, some normally skeptical law enforcement officers
accept the information disseminated at these conferences without critically evaluating it or questioning the
sources. Officers who do not normally depend on church groups for law enforcement criminal
intelligence, who know that media accounts of their own cases are notoriously inaccurate, and who sr.off
at and joke about tabloid television accounts of bizarre behavior suddenly embrace such material when
presented in the context of Satanic activity. Individuals not in law enforcement seem even more likely
to do so. Other disciplines, especially therapists, have also conducted training conferences on the
characteristics and identification of "ritual" child abuse. Nothing said at such conferences will change the
religious beliefs of those in attendance. Such conferences illustrate the highly emotional nature of and the
ambiguity and wide variety of terms involved in this issue.

And this:

What is Ritual?
The biggest confusion is over the word ritual. During training conferences on this topic, ritual almost
always comes to mean Satanic or at least spiritual. Ritual can refer to a prescribed religious ceremony,
but in its broader meaning refers to any customarily repeated act or series of acts. The need to repeat
these acts can be cultural, sexual, or psychological as well as spiritual.

And this:

From a criminal investigative perspective, two other forms of ritualism must be recognized. The
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III-R) (APA, 1987) defines ObsessiveCompulsive
Disorder as "repetitive, purposeful, and intentional behaviors that are performed in response
to an obsession, or according to certain rules or in· a stereotyped fashion" (p. 247). Such compulsive
behavior frequently involves rituals. Although such behavior usually involves noncriminal activity such
as excessive hand washing or checking that doors are locked, occasionally compulsive ritualism can be part
of criminal activity. Certain gamblers or firesetters, for example, are thought by some authorities to be
motivated in part through such compulsions. Ritual can also stem from psychotic hallucinations and
delusions. A crime can be committed in a precise manner because a voice told the offender to do it that
way or because a divine mission required it.

To make this more confusing, cultural, religious, sexual, and psychological ritual can overlap. Some
psychotic people are preoccupied with religious delusions and hear the voice of God or Satan telling them
to do things of a religious nature. Offenders who feel little, if any, guilt over their crimes may need little
justification for their antisocial behavior. As human beings, however, they may have fears, concerns and
anxiety over getting away with their criminal acts. It is difficult to pray to God for success in doing things
that are against His Commandments. A negative spiritual belief system may fulfill their human need for
assistance from and belief in a greater power or to deal with their superstitions. Compulsive ritualism
(e.g., excessive cleanliness or fear of disease) can be introduced into sexual behavior. Even many
"normal" people have a need for order and predictability and therefore may engage in family or work
rituals. Under stress or in times of change, this need for order and ritual may increase.

Ritual crime may fulfill the cultural, spiritual, sexual, and psychological needs of an offender. Crimes
may be ritualistically motivated or may have ritualistic elements. The ritual behavior may also fulfill
basic criminal needs to manipulate victims, get rid of rivals, send a message to enemies, and intimidate
co-conspirators. The leaders of a group may want to play upon the.beliefs and superstitions of those
around them and try to convince accomplices and enemies that they, the leaders, have special or
"supernatural" powers.

And this:

What is "Ritual- Child Abuse?

I cannot define ritual child abuse precisely and prefer not to use the term. I am frequently forced to
use it (as throughout this discussion) so that people will have some idea what I am discussing. Use of
the term, however, is confusing, misleading, and counterproductive. The newer term, Satanic ritual abuse
(abbreviated SRA), is even worse. Certain observations, however, are important for investigative
understanding.

Most people today use the term to refer to abuse of children that is part of some evil spiritual belief
system, which almost by definition must be Satanic.

Dr. Lawrence Pazder, coauthor of Micnelle Remembers, defines ritualized abuse of children as
"repeated physical, emotional, mental, and spiritual assaults combined with a systematic use of symbols
and secret ceremonies designed to turn a child against itself, family, society, and God" (Presentation,
Richmond, Va., May 7, 1987). He also states that "the sexual assault has ritualistic meaning and is not
for sexual gratification."

This definition may have value for academics, sociologists, and therapists, but it creates potential
problems for law enforcement. Certain acts engaged in with children (i.e., kissing, touching, appearing
naked, etc.) may be criminal if performed for sexual gratification. If the ritualistic acts were in fact
performed for spiritual indoctrination, potential prosecution can be jeopardized, particularly if the acts can
be defended as constitutionally protected religious expression. The mutilation of a baby's genitals for
sadistic sexual pleasure is a crime. The circumcision of a baby's genitals for religious reasons is most
likely NOT a crime. The intent of the acts is important for criminal prosecution.

Not all spiritually motivated ritualistic activity is Satanic. Santeria, witchcraft, voodoo, and most
religious cults are not satanism. In fact, most spiritually or religiously based abuse of children has nothing
to do with satanism. Most child abuse that could be termed "ritualistic" by various definitions is more
likely to be physical and psychological rather than sexual in nature. If a distinction needs to be made
between Satanic and nonsatanic child abuse, the indicators for that distinction must be related to specific
Satanic symbols. artifacts, or doctrine rather than the mere presence of any ritualistic element.

Not all such ritualistic activity with a child is a crime .. Almost all parents with religious beliefs
indoctrinate their children into that belief system. Is male circumcision for religious reasons child abuse?
Is the religious circumcision of females child abuse? Does having a child kneel on a hard floor reciting
the rosary constitute child abuse? Does having a child chant a Satanic prayer or attend a black mass
constitute child abuse? Does a religious belief in corporal punishment constitute child abuse? Does group
care of children in a commune or cult constitute child abuse? Does the fact that any acts in question were
performed with parental permission affect the nature of the crime? Many ritualistic acts, whether Satanic
or not, are simply not crimes. To open the Pandora's box of labeling child abuse as "ritualistic" simply
because it involves a spiritual belief system, means to apply the definition to all acts by all spiritual belief
systems. The day may come when many in the forefront of concern about ritual abuse will regret they
opened the box.

From the Conclusion:

I believe that there is a middle ground--a continuum of possible activity. Some of what the victims
allege may be true and accurate, some may be misperceived or distorted, some may be screened or
symbolic, and some may be "contaminated" or false. The problem and challenge, especially for law
enforcement, is to determine which is which. This can only be done through active investigation. I
believe that the majority of victims alleging "ritual" abuse are in fact victims of some form of abuse or
trauma. That abuse or trauma mayor may not be criminal in nature. After a lengthy discussion about
various alternative explanations and the continuum of possible activity, one mother told me that for the
first time since the victimization of her young son she felt a little better. She had thought her only choices
were that either her son was a pathological liar or, on the other hand, she lived in a community controlled
by satanists.

Any professional evaluating victims' allegations of "ritual" abuse cannot ignore or routinely dismiss
the lack of physical evidence (no bodies or physical evidence left by violent murders); the difficulty in
successfully committing a large-scale conspiracy crime (the more people involved in any crime
conspiracy, the harder it is to get away with it); and human nature (intragroup conflicts resulting in
individual self-serving disclosures are likely to occur in any group involved in organized kidnapping,
baby breeding, and human sacrifice). H and when members of a destructive cult commit murders, they
are bound to make mistakes, leave evidence, and eventually make admissions in order to brag about their
crimes or to reduce their legal liability. The discovery of the murders in Matamoros, Mexico, in 1989,
and the results of the subsequent investigation are good examples of these dynamics.

The amount of "ritual" child abuse going on in this country depends on how you define the term.
One documented example of what I might call "ritual" child abuse was the horror chronicled in the book
A Death in White Bear Lake (Siegal, 1990). The abuse in this case, however, had little to do with
anyone's spiritual belief system. There are many children in the United States who, starting early in their
lives, are severely psychologically, physically, and sexually traumatized by angry, sadistic parents or other
adults. Such abuse, however, is not perpetrated only or primarily by satanists. The statistical odds are
that such abusers are members of mainstream religions. If 99.9% of satanists and 0.1 % of Christians
abuse children as part of their spiritual belief system, that still means that the vast majority of children
so abused were abused by Christians.

If the guilty are to be successfully prosecuted, if the innocent are to be exonerated, and if the victims
are to be protected and treated, better methods to evaluate and explain allegations of "ritual" child abuse
must be developed or identified. Until this is done, the controversy will continue to cast a shadow over
and fuel the backlash against the validity and reality of child sexual abuse.