Res Ipsa wrote:Interesting piece. How do you see the outcome?
I'd be lying if I said I had a lot of optimism on the topic. It may be my biases talking but I find the center eroding at a lopsided rate, the right being a longer running problem. As Democrats have to increasingly behave in a similar fashion just to put up a fight I'm skeptical there will ever be a time when they won't have to. I think the next 2-4 years of elections, obviously this midterm but especially 2020, will probably seal the fate. Either cooler heads can and will prevail or the division will just grow wider. Maybe I'm wrong but I see a fast approaching "point of no return" (assuming we haven't already passed it and I'm just being unrealistic).
As French points out this is the exact kind of environment the radicals love and they are damn good at the game. So I'm not entirely sure what the way to combat it is. Apart from personal behavior, that is really only impactful when done enmasse, how do you fight the divisiveness?
To Doc's point, fracturing may happen to a greater extent but I definitely don't see that as helping. Those kinds of fractures are what allow the GOP to nominate literal neo-nazis in a primary. Or on a larger scale it is what lets Trump through in a crowded primary field. The way we seemingly deal with those kinds of fractures is to in-fight to the point of allowing extremism to quietly win the day, at least currently.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Here in America we might maintain the façade of a two-party system, but we'll see groups within groups form and agitate for their platforms. - Doc
Isn't that how America has operated since the advent of the two-party system? Instead of governing coalitions forming from multiple parties as you see in proportional parliamentary governments, our coalitions form and operate internal to two parties. There's always internal factions within the major parties with their own competing interests. What's unique right now is a culture partisan bloc voting. That culture is as strong now as it has been since the gilded age and the partisan divides in the gilded age weren't quite as ideological.
This provocative Vox piece from 2015 I think captures the general issues with how the current polarization is particularly dangerous for our democracy:
One of the key points that I think sometimes is lost on people is that presidential democracies almost invariably fail. In fact, we're the only one that has lasted a substantial amount of time without collapsing.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Here in America we might maintain the façade of a two-party system, but we'll see groups within groups form and agitate for their platforms. - Doc
Isn't that how America has operated since the advent of the two-party system? Instead of governing coalitions forming from multiple parties as you see in proportional parliamentary governments, our coalitions form and operate internal to two parties. There's always internal factions within the major parties with their own competing interests. What's unique right now is a culture partisan bloc voting. That culture is as strong now as it has been since the gilded age and the partisan divides in the gilded age weren't quite as ideological.
True that. I believe it'll become exasperated as the echo chamberfication of American identity becomes more and more parsed out. Couple that with information operations by partisans, thanks to our own willingness to share on social media platforms, and we're rolling along unabated with microtargeting by political factions.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
If you poll people who call themselves "centrists" you find that around half just want radical things that are a little from column A and a little from column B. We should socialize the oil industry and make it illegal to criticize cops. It's a fallacy to think centrism is inherently good or stabilizing.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: You sure they aren't speaking loudly about the target audience? I certainly don't see anyone complaining about 'rapepublicans', and other assorted nasties being thrown at wrong-think on this forum. Liberals on this forum lose their ____ when treated like they treat others.
- Doc
Well, Dog posted the pictures in response to a comment by me — a comment that wasn’t any sort of partisan attack. Or even a comment that took sides. Dog chose to post them in response — a choice that speaks about him.
My original comment didn’t complain specifically about left or right. Yet you responded as if I had complained about the right and not the left.
You’ll note that I’ve never used the term rapepublicans or anything like it. I don’t believe Republicans are pro-rape. I don’t believe you or dog or Ajax or sub are pro rape. So why are you raising that term with me? I’m not the board nanny, at least not any more. I’m done policing the speech of adults who posted here.
How about this? We all just take responsibility for what we post. We don’t get to blame someone else for the stuff we type out and post. No excuses.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”
― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
RI, because a gif is enough for you to bitch about WD, but not the perjoratives being thrown around by others? It demonstrates an ideological blindspot.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
EAllusion wrote:If you poll people who call themselves "centrists" you find that around half just want radical things that are a little from column A and a little from column B. We should socialize the oil industry and make it illegal to criticize cops. It's a fallacy to think centrism is inherently good or stabilizing.
Who is making that argument other than you?
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:RI, because a gif is enough for you to bitch about WD, but not the perjoratives being thrown around by others? It demonstrates an ideological blindspot.
- Doc
Except it was posted in response to RI. I think he saying he is only worrying about what he posts and what people post in response to him. I think you get that though.
"If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation." -Xenophon of Athens
EAllusion wrote:If you poll people who call themselves "centrists" you find that around half just want radical things that are a little from column A and a little from column B. We should socialize the oil industry and make it illegal to criticize cops. It's a fallacy to think centrism is inherently good or stabilizing.
Who is making that argument other than you?
- Doc
Lots of people think centrism is inherently good and stabilizing. It's almost a religious belief in the mainstream political press. It's generally good news for a politician if they can find a way to be thought of as "centrist" in a general election because it will garner them positive coverage. Since centrism is frequently mentioned as a needed antidote to to increased polarization, I preemptively made a comment about that. As best I can tell, you'd count as one of the "radical centrists" I was referring to, though I'm not sure if your self-label is intended to communicate the same information.