Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Rosebud]

If the entire line of "evidence" against someone who was accused of sexual abuse in the 1980s is based on memories children had after visiting Barbara Snow or another therapist who believes that "recovered memories" are real, then yeah, they were almost certainly innocent.

Is that the entire line of "evidence" against anyone? Is "Barbara Snow" a bad person? Is everything that "Barbara Snow" touches necessarily fraudulent? If something traumatic happens and then it is forgotten, did it not happen? Does a tree that falls in the forest make a sound if no one is listening?

By the end of the 1990s, many of the trauma clinics that had specialized in recovered memory therapy had shut down. The daytime talk shows about Satanic abuse and multiple personalities became less frequent, and the courts became wary of testimony based on recovered memories. Richard McNally, the director of clinical training in the Department of Psychology at Harvard and author of the book Remembering Trauma, put it bluntly in a friend-of-court brief: “The notion that traumatic events can be repressed and later recovered is the most pernicious bit of folklore ever to infect psychology and psychiatry.”

The Most Dangerous Idea in Mental Health

How do we know that everything that someone from Harvard says is true?

If something has proven itself to be pernicious folklore, does that also mean the trees didn't fall in the forest because no one was there to hear the sound?

And if you believe kids wouldn't lie about such things, or even that people wouldn't confess to something they didn't do, then you're not judging such situations accurately.

What has given you the impression that the posters here believe people are generally honest and that all confessions and reports are accurate?

If the child hadn't made any specific accusations before they talked to a therapist, or there wasn't any corroborating physical evidence, then extreme caution is warranted.

What has given you the impression that people here don't believe extreme caution is warranted?

[_Mary]

Cinepro, in each of the cases of Hadfield and Bullock, alarm bells went off for neighbouring parents because their children were exhibiting sexual knowledge and behaviour that they shouldn't have been aware of. In both cases the trail led to an adult.

I don't know if there was a miscarriage of justice, but again, that there was sexual abuse going on I think, is also pretty well substantiated.

[_Rosebud]

This is an important question, I think: If cases are not prosecutable, does that mean the abuse does not happen?

The 1995 Attorney General report addresses this. People keep misquoting the report and saying, "No evidence has ever been found," when in reality, that's not what the report said at all. It presented a summary of the evidence found then discussed why the cases weren't prosecutable.

[_Lemmie]

I don't think "there is no evidence" is a mis-representation of the report.

From the preface of the report:

Across the state, the investigative team has contacted legislators, law enforcement heads, therapists, religious leaders, school counselors and civic leaders regarding ritual crime. The majority of those interviewed indicated that they believe that ritual crime is possible and probably is occurring. This same group of leaders could not produce any clear evidence to support their beliefs, and state that they just, “feel that it’s possible.”

...What hasn’t been corroborated is the multitude of reports by abuse “survivors” claiming to have been party to human sacrifices, sexual abuse of young children, torture, and other atrocitiIes ommitted by well-organized groups which pervade every level of government, every social status and every state in the country.

[bolding added]

[_Mary]

I don't think "there is no evidence" is a mis-representation of the report.

From the preface of the report:

Across the state, the investigative team has contacted legislators, law enforcement heads, therapists, religious leaders, school counselors and civic leaders regarding ritual crime. The majority of those interviewed indicated that they believe that ritual crime is possible and probably is occurring. This same group of leaders could not produce any clear evidence to support their beliefs, and state that they just, “feel that it’s possible.”

...What hasn’t been corroborated is the multitude of reports by abuse “survivors” claiming to have been party to human sacrifices, sexual abuse of young children, torture, and other atrocitiIes ommitted by well-organized groups which pervade every level of government, every social status and every state in the country.

[bolding added]

Oh, it is a misrepresentation.

From p3

"None of the allegations presented to investigators have resulted in prosecutions except for the case of the Zion Society in Ogden.

In the Zion Society case, approximately 100 people claimed membership in a “secret society” governed by self proclaimed prophet Arvin Shreeve. Shreeve taught that women should be involved sexually with each other and with Shreeve who was considered by them to be their eternal companion. Shreeve further taught that the children living in the group were to be sexually involved as well. Shreeve taught that he received daily revelation regarding the group’s physical, spiritual and sexual needs. The group lived in ten neighboring homes. They home taught their children and operated in a “survivalist attitude” Regarding food storage, etc. Eventually, 12 adults were charged with felony crimes regarding the sexual abuse of children. All 12 were convicted and sentenced. The most serious offenders, Arvin Shreeve and Sharon Kapp are respectively serving 20 years and 10 years to life sentences in the Utah State Prison.

In another case, three adult female children recalled memories of Satanic sexual abuse that occurred while they were very young. The victims, in separate interviews discussed robed ceremonies, alters, candles, animal sacrifices and extreme physical and sexual abuse. Since their recollections appeared to show some consistency, an in-depth investigation was launched. At the conclusion of the investigation, the suspects were interviewed. Both the mother and the father admitted to serious sexual and physical crimes against the children and named several other individuals who were also involved. The case, however could not be prosecuted because the statute of limitation had run. The crimes occurred over 25 years ago, but this case does indicate that serious sexual and physical abuse can happen and that it is perpetrated by those who cloak their crimes in ritualistic activity."

and p5

"Evidence has shown that there are many isolated instances of ritual abuse of children perpetrated either by individuals or small groups, and sometimes those people have used at least the trappings of Satanism or other religious or “magic” orders in the course of the abuse. What hasn’t been corroborated is the multitude of reports by abuse “survivors” claiming to have been party to human sacrifices, sexual abuse of young children, torture, and other atrocities committed by well-organized groups which pervade every level of government, every social status and every state in the country. The lack of prosecution of such reports does not mean that the reports are fictitious."

[_Rosebud]

People need to actually read the report instead of making representations about what they believe it must say based on the things they've heard other people say about what it says. Especially when the other people they're listening to haven't read the report either.......

In other words, this is scary and of course we all hope stuff like this can't happen. Yuck. Nobody wants to believe this.

But there really are bad people in the world and the good people ought to at least take the time to read the report investigators took two years preparing.

[_Lemmie]

People need to actually read the report instead of making representations about what they believe it must say based on the things they've heard other people say about what it says. Especially when the other people they're listening to haven't read the report either.......

Because if people disagree with you, it has to be because they didn't read the report, right?

In other words, this is scary and of course we all hope stuff like this can't happen. Yuck. Nobody wants to believe this.

But there really are bad people in the world and the good people ought to at least take the time to read the report investigators took two years preparing.

People are not disagreeing with you because it is 'yucky and scary.' I would expect a little more professionalism in a discussion such as this.

Back to the topic, yes there was the ONE zions case, Mary, and the paragraph preceding the one you quoted adds a great deal of perspective:

During an exhaustive two year search, the Unit has over 125 cases of alleged ritual crime. In some cases, these i involved hundreds of hours of investigation and evaluation. In addition, the Unit investigators have met with hundreds of citizens who claim to be victims of Satanic, religious, physical or sexually motivated ritual crimes.
Many of those interviews were not assigned case numbers because they did not appear to have sufficient information to proceed. None of the allegations presented to investigators have resulted in prosecutions except for the case of the Zion Society in Ogden.

So they found ONE case of what qualified as ritual abuse, out of ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE investigated allegations of ritual abuse.

That does not indicate that there is an ongoing ritual abuse problem.

[_Mary]

So they found ONE case of what qualified as ritual abuse, out of ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE investigated allegations of ritual abuse.

That does not indicate that there is an ongoing ritual abuse problem.

I think Utah has a unique but hopefully rare problem with this.. Not only do we have the Zion Society Case, but also Warren Jeffs and the Elizabeth Smart Cases.

And there was also the unique case, unprosecutable, because of the Statute of Limitations, where the parents admitted using ritual elements, and admitted others were involved.

[_Mary]

In the Hadfield and Bullock cases, the children exhibited strong evidence of having been sexually abused.. Did they catch the right perpetrators? Hopefully.

[_cinepro]

In the Hadfield and Bullock cases, the children exhibited strong evidence of having been sexually abused.. Did they catch the right perpetrators? Hopefully.

What was that "strong evidence"?