Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

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_Chap
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Chap »

subgenius wrote: ...
There are a lot of journalists who are critical of that regime....Khashoggi got a little special treatment for another reason...or is "the regime" just trying to keep it fresh?


Khashoggi was a Saudi journalist. Saudi journalists who stay in the country and write critically about the regime end up in jail or worse.

The regime (which at the moment means effectively Prince Mohammed bin Salman) hates having one of its own living safely abroad in the USA, where he is resident, and writing first amendment protected columns in the Washington Post saying that the Arab World is in desperate need of free speech (which God knows, it certainly is).

Khashoggi was about to get married to a Turkish woman. To do that, he needed official Saudi validation of his previous divorce, for which purpose he visited the Saudi consulate in Turkey by appointment ... only to be drugged, tortured, and dismembered (possibly while still alive), by a team of experts sent from Saudi Arabia for the purpose.

That you can call this 'a little special treatment' as if it is a joking matter is ... indicative, shall we say.

Meanwhile, because the Trump administration has a lot riding on its relationship with Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who almost certainly ordered this murder:

Trump administration believes blaming [General] Ahmed al-Assiri for presumed death of journalist could offer way out of the crisis

US officials are putting sustained pressure on Mohammed bin Salman to blame one of his favoured generals – the deputy head of Saudi intelligence – for the presumed death of Jamal Khashoggi, a move the Trump administration believes could allow both Washington and Riyadh a way out of the escalating crisis.

General Ahmed al-Assiri is one of the embattled crown prince’s most trusted security officials, a senior air force officer who was the Saudi face of the Yemen war for more than a year before being thrust into the intelligence role. He is entrusted with the most sensitive state secrets and if, as is widely alleged, the kingdom was responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance, would have have almost certainly been a party to plans.

Officials in Washington have suggested for the past three days that a senior figure in Riyadh was central to the apparent plot to lure Khashoggi into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, where he is believed to have been tortured and killed by state security officials. Their insistence, however, has been met with blanket denials by Prince Mohammed, who continues to eschew any Saudi link to a disappearance that has become the most significant foreign policy crisis of Trump’s presidency, and battered the kingdom’s global reputation.

As Prince Mohammed has strengthened his denials, Washington has ramped up pressure on the young heir to the throne. Enmeshed with the impetuous crown prince on many levels, it has been in nearly as much need of a face-saving solution to the crisis as Riyadh. While the US administration has said it will not cut loose a leader in whom much of Trump’s foreign policy is invested, mounting pressure at home and relentless international outrage surrounding Khashoggi’s apparent murder, are forcing Washington to take an unusually robust stance.

Officials have been increasingly irritated at Prince Mohammed’s intransigence – a view that has led them to name General Assiri as a man who could take the blame. Assiri has no family connections to the Saudi royal establishment, but had been an enthusiastic and polished advocate of the kingdom’s involvement in Yemen, a role that caught the 33-year-old crown prince’s eye.

Sandhurst educated, US trained and fluent in English, he had a steady rise through the Saudi air force. The trajectory was at odds with his humble origins from a village in the country’s south-west, but was seen by other senior officers was meritorious. His switch to deputy intelligence chief was less popular, but cemented his power with the royal court, where only a small network of advisers are entrusted with calling the shots.

That Washington, rather than Riyadh, is constructing what many claim is a fall guy, speaks to the wide divergence in positions in both capitals. Trump officials have said privately that the kingdom’s stance is indefensible. The US president himself again warned on Thursday of “severe consequences” if the brutal crime is traced to Prince Mohammed. However, he appears reluctant to make that link.

The crown prince, meanwhile, has shown no sign of bowing to demands, even though neither he nor his officials have provided any plausible explanation for how Khashoggi vanished after entering the kingdom’s diplomatic mission on 2 October.

The besieged Saudi leader views himself as a strongman who cannot show weakness, especially while under pressure. His denials, amplified by Saudi state media’s claims of a conspiracy against the kingdom by regional foe Qatar, and its ally Turkey, have been widely supported domestically.

In conversations with the Guardian over the past week, two senior Saudi establishment figures have said that Prince Mohammed could make concessions only if they were on his terms, and not the result of force.

Under Trump, Saudi Arabia has been central to the US’s aggressive projection towards Iran and the key benefactor of his administration’s move to overturn Barack Obama’s pivot towards Tehran. The crown prince had also been central to other plans, such as Jared Kushner’s so-called peace initiative between Israel and the Palestinians.

He has courted connections in elite US business circles, and investors had clamoured to join an investment conference in Riyadh, which is due to begin on Monday. However, the Khashoggi disappearance has led to widespread cancellations, including US treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin, who is understood to have pulled out partly because Prince Mohammed continues to refuse Washington’s “solution”.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Pardon my ignorance, but it appears as though Mr. Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen and "only" a resident alien living in the United States.

If he wasn't a U.S. citizen, why is everyone presuming it's President Trump's job to get hot and bothered over this?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Chap
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Chap »

Dr. Shades wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but it appears as though Mr. Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen and "only" a resident alien living in the United States.

If he wasn't a U.S. citizen, why is everyone presuming it's President Trump's job to get hot and bothered over this?


Perhaps you could write to Mr Trump to ask him to explain his position?

He said: “Well there’s a lot at stake. There’s a lot at stake and maybe especially so because this man was a reporter.

“There’s something – you’ll be surprised to hear me say that – there’s something really terrible and disgusting about that if that were the case, so we’re going to have to see. We’re going to get to the bottom of it and there will be severe punishment.


There's also, you know, the little matter of the Saudis organising murders on the territory of a not unimportant NATO ally of the USA.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Dr. Shades wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but it appears as though Mr. Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen and "only" a resident alien living in the United States.

If he wasn't a U.S. citizen, why is everyone presuming it's President Trump's job to get hot and bothered over this?


Because he was a Washington Post reporter? I dunno, Shades. I had the same question as you. All of this beats the hell outta me.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Chap
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:All of this beats the hell outta me.


I hope you find my previous post helpful.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Chap wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:All of this beats the hell outta me.


I hope you find my previous post helpful.


I'm not sure that I do find it helpful.

I'm entirely repulsed by the torture and killing that happened. I'm not sure where the boundaries are in terms of US response to it.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Chap
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:I'm entirely repulsed by the torture and killing that happened. I'm not sure where the boundaries are in terms of US response to it.


Apart from the fact that Trump, (even Trump, for goodness's sake!) thinks that this matters a lot to the US, you might consider this point:

Chap wrote:There's also, you know, the little matter of the Saudis organising murders on the territory of a not unimportant NATO ally of the USA.


Or are you under the impression that it is a good idea for the USA to be seen to have as a close ally a country whose current effective leader has people drugged, tortured, and cut up, possibly while still alive?

Prince Mohammed bin Salman is currently very powerful. But he is by no means universally popular, to say the least, and this criminal adventure makes his survival in power less likely. Even the most naïve isolationist pseudo-realpolitik might suggest that it is unwise for the US to continue to hitch its wagon ever more strongly to what may soon be a falling star.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Chap wrote:Or are you under the impression that it is a good idea for the USA to be seen to have as a close ally a country whose current effective leader has people drugged, tortured, and cut up, possibly while still alive?


Thanks for asking. I'm under the impression that more women need to seek and move into leadership positions because men in leadership positions (of power) have screwed up this world beyond all recognition.

The corruption in this world is astounding.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Chap
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Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Chap wrote:Or are you under the impression that it is a good idea for the USA to be seen to have as a close ally a country whose current effective leader has people drugged, tortured, and cut up, possibly while still alive?


Thanks for asking. I'm under the impression that more women need to seek and move into leadership positions because men in leadership positions (of power) have ____ up this world beyond all recognition.

The corruption in this world is astounding.


Absolutely. I'm glad to end up agreeing with you. I have the impression that international politics is currently suffering from a severe overdose of testosterone.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Jamal Khashoggi - Murdered, dismembered

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Chap wrote:There's also, you know, the little matter of the Saudis organising murders on the territory of a not unimportant NATO ally of the USA.

I'm not sure if a consulate is legally different from an Embassy, but if not, doesn't it count as Saudi territory?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
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