Chap wrote:There's also, you know, the little matter of the Saudis organising murders on the territory of a not unimportant NATO ally of the USA.
I'm not sure if a consulate is legally different from an Embassy, but if not, doesn't it count as Saudi territory?
Pretty much, from what I understand. They're 100% within their right to murder their own citizen with impunity on their own soil, but also cut us a check for some military hardware as a thank you for not snooping around too much. This will blow over within a day or two, and by the time Mueller releases his findings this non-story will be relegated to the dustbin of history.
If only we had some sort of department that would engage other states over matters like these so the President could focus on golfing...
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Chap wrote: Apart from the fact that Trump, (even Trump, for goodness's sake!) thinks that this matters a lot to the US, you might consider this point:
The same Trump who said Ford was a credible witness just days before bashing her?
Nothing Trump says can be trusted. Nothing. He doesn't even keep track of the crap he says which is mostly to appease a journalist before contradicting himself within 24 hrs for the purpose of riling up his base.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:....and by the time Mueller releases his findings this non-story will be relegated to the dustbin of history.
- Doc
Word on the street is that Mueller is going to disappoint every Democrat/Lib on this thread. The early condilences are already being published in an effortto minimize the triggers and create safe spaces for the onslaught of reality. 17 months of entrenched Democrats suddenly confronted with "no collusion" ain't gonna be pretty.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Saudi Arabia admits Khashoggi died in consulate, fires two senior officials
By Aziz El Yaakoubi
DUBAI (Reuters) - - Saudi Arabia said on Saturday that Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi has died, and said it fired two senior officials over the incident that has provoked an international outcry and strained relations between Riyadh and the West.
A statement from the Saudi public prosecutor said a fight broke out between Khashoggi and people who met him in the consulate and led to his death.
"The investigations are still underway and 18 Saudi nationals have been arrested," the statement on state media said, adding that royal court adviser Saud al-Qahtani and deputy intelligence chief Ahmed Asiri have been fired from their positions.
They needed 15 guys flown into Turkey, in the middle of the night, to fight one journalist? Huh.
Anyway, this is a surprising turn of events. Firing two officials and arresting their own? Makes me wonder what kind of pressure the West was putting on the regime to make something like this happen...
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Water Dog wrote:The only thing about this that interests me is why Turkey is still a member of NATO.
I don't know if I'm super interested in the story, but when the Saudis' conduct an op, and somehow the agents involved are doxxed by the global media around the world it's kind of fascinating:
If you click on the article, it lol lists off the hit squad's names and faces (with a few exceptions). That's amazing.
- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Chap wrote:There's also, you know, the little matter of the Saudis organising murders on the territory of a not unimportant NATO ally of the USA.
I'm not sure if a consulate is legally different from an Embassy, but if not, doesn't it count as Saudi territory?
Yes, but the rest of Turkey isn't. The team of 15 agents arrived at the airport already determined on a conspiracy to commit a murder and carrying the equipment to carry it out, then having done so they drove through the streets of a Turkish city with the body of their victim in their vehicle(s), first to the consul's residence and secondly, it appears, to the woods for obvious purposes.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Anyway, this is a surprising turn of events. Firing two officials and arresting their own? Makes me wonder what kind of pressure the West was putting on the regime to make something like this happen...
Sorry to interrupt, but this has already been explained in this thread ...
US officials are putting sustained pressure on Mohammed bin Salman to blame one of his favoured generals – the deputy head of Saudi intelligence – for the presumed death of Jamal Khashoggi, a move the Trump administration believes could allow both Washington and Riyadh a way out of the escalating crisis.
General Ahmed al-Assiri is one of the embattled crown prince’s most trusted security officials, a senior air force officer who was the Saudi face of the Yemen war for more than a year before being thrust into the intelligence role. He is entrusted with the most sensitive state secrets and if, as is widely alleged, the kingdom was responsible for Khashoggi’s disappearance, would have have almost certainly been a party to plans.
Officials in Washington have suggested for the past three days that a senior figure in Riyadh was central to the apparent plot to lure Khashoggi into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, where he is believed to have been tortured and killed by state security officials. Their insistence, however, has been met with blanket denials by Prince Mohammed, who continues to eschew any Saudi link to a disappearance that has become the most significant foreign policy crisis of Trump’s presidency, and battered the kingdom’s global reputation.
As Prince Mohammed has strengthened his denials, Washington has ramped up pressure on the young heir to the throne. Enmeshed with the impetuous crown prince on many levels, it has been in nearly as much need of a face-saving solution to the crisis as Riyadh. While the US administration has said it will not cut loose a leader in whom much of Trump’s foreign policy is invested, mounting pressure at home and relentless international outrage surrounding Khashoggi’s apparent murder, are forcing Washington to take an unusually robust stance.
Officials have been increasingly irritated at Prince Mohammed’s intransigence – a view that has led them to name General Assiri as a man who could take the blame. Assiri has no family connections to the Saudi royal establishment, but had been an enthusiastic and polished advocate of the kingdom’s involvement in Yemen, a role that caught the 33-year-old crown prince’s eye.
Sandhurst educated, US trained and fluent in English, he had a steady rise through the Saudi air force. The trajectory was at odds with his humble origins from a village in the country’s south-west, but was seen by other senior officers was meritorious. His switch to deputy intelligence chief was less popular, but cemented his power with the royal court, where only a small network of advisers are entrusted with calling the shots.
That Washington, rather than Riyadh, is constructing what many claim is a fall guy, speaks to the wide divergence in positions in both capitals. Trump officials have said privately that the kingdom’s stance is indefensible. The US president himself again warned on Thursday of “severe consequences” if the brutal crime is traced to Prince Mohammed. However, he appears reluctant to make that link.
The crown prince, meanwhile, has shown no sign of bowing to demands, even though neither he nor his officials have provided any plausible explanation for how Khashoggi vanished after entering the kingdom’s diplomatic mission on 2 October.
The besieged Saudi leader views himself as a strongman who cannot show weakness, especially while under pressure. His denials, amplified by Saudi state media’s claims of a conspiracy against the kingdom by regional foe Qatar, and its ally Turkey, have been widely supported domestically.
In conversations with the Guardian over the past week, two senior Saudi establishment figures have said that Prince Mohammed could make concessions only if they were on his terms, and not the result of force.
Under Trump, Saudi Arabia has been central to the US’s aggressive projection towards Iran and the key benefactor of his administration’s move to overturn Barack Obama’s pivot towards Tehran. The crown prince had also been central to other plans, such as Jared Kushner’s so-called peace initiative between Israel and the Palestinians.
He has courted connections in elite US business circles, and investors had clamoured to join an investment conference in Riyadh, which is due to begin on Monday. However, the Khashoggi disappearance has led to widespread cancellations, including US treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin, who is understood to have pulled out partly because Prince Mohammed continues to refuse Washington’s “solution”.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Water Dog wrote:The only thing about this that interests me is why Turkey is still a member of NATO.
Same reason Poland is. It's fall into illiberalism is very recent and severing the military alliance would have substantial negative consequences, so their membership limps along. Italy is on the same path. As is, you know, the United States.
So after first lying about having anything to do with his disappearance, and only after finding out the entire thing was caught on audio, and only after finding out a credible witness came forth with an account of the torture/killing, the Saudi's wants us to believe that ... yes, the man tragically died at their embassy. HOWEVER!!! This only happened because he got into a fist fight inside the embassy.
Because we all know how plausible, believable, and normal it is for journalists who fear for their lives to start fist fights at the embassy of the country that wants them dead. It is also normal, plausible, and believable that their bodies be dismembered and disposed because there is nothing to hide.
Trump is completely buying into this BS. If only the Saudi leaders were women, maybe then he'd finally have reason to doubt their story.