Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

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_Themis
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Themis »

Res Ipsa wrote:Oh, you mean you fell what your fellow denier pasted on the graph -- that thing about "dangerously low levels of CO2." That didn't lead you to, like, do some googling to check it out?


I noticed the caption as well and had to laugh. It certainly tells the source of the image is from a climate science denying site. CO2 as you say has been lower then today and plants don't seem to have been dying. I do wish WD would spend more time with original scientific sources for information.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

LOL! Regarding Lindzen, Dog says:

Sure, compare his forecasts (like his 2011 paper) with empirical measurements and the most recent IPCC walkbacks. I thought you relied on the "entire body of scientific evidence?" RI, the thing is, you're just a talker. You talk big. You aren't relying on the body of evidence. You haven't read all these papers. Are you a climatologist, actively involved in climate research? You are relying on your sources. Instead of talking the subject with me, you continue to talk about what... ME. All you do is talk about me. I have cited numerous scientists in thread, Lindzen being just one.]


Why do you think I'm unfamiliar with Lindzen & Choi (2011)? I'm familiar with the whole damn Lindzen & Choi saga. Here's a pretty good summary: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/01/scie ... ted=3&_r=2

[Dr. Lindzen accepts the elementary tenets of climate science. He agrees that carbon dioxide is a greenhouse gas, calling people who dispute that point “nutty.” He agrees that the level of it is rising because of human activity and that this should warm the climate.

But for more than a decade, Dr. Lindzen has said that when surface temperature increases, the columns of moist air rising in the tropics will rain out more of their moisture, leaving less available to be thrown off as ice, which forms the thin, high clouds known as cirrus. Just like greenhouse gases, these cirrus clouds act to reduce the cooling of the earth, and a decrease of them would counteract the increase of greenhouse gases.

Dr. Lindzen calls his mechanism the iris effect, after the iris of the eye, which opens at night to let in more light. In this case, the earth’s “iris” of high clouds would be opening to let more heat escape.

When Dr. Lindzen first published this theory, in 2001, he said it was supported by satellite records over the Pacific Ocean. But other researchers quickly published work saying that the methods he had used to analyze the data were flawed and that his theory made assumptions that were inconsistent with known facts. Using what they considered more realistic assumptions, they said they could not verify his claims.

Today, most mainstream researchers consider Dr. Lindzen’s theory discredited. He does not agree, but he has had difficulty establishing his case in the scientific literature. Dr. Lindzen published a paper in 2009 offering more support for his case that the earth’s sensitivity to greenhouse gases is low, but once again scientists identified errors, including a failure to account for known inaccuracies in satellite measurements.

Dr. Lindzen acknowledged that the 2009 paper contained “some stupid mistakes” in his handling of the satellite data. “It was just embarrassing,” he said in an interview. “The technical details of satellite measurements are really sort of grotesque.”

Last year, he tried offering more evidence for his case, but after reviewers for a prestigious American journal criticized the paper, Dr. Lindzen published it in a little-known Korean journal.

Dr. Lindzen blames groupthink among climate scientists for his publication difficulties, saying the majority is determined to suppress any dissenting views. They, in turn, contend that he routinely misrepresents the work of other researchers.[/quote]

Lindzen & Choi (2011) was submitted to the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science. Four reviewers were assigned, two of whom were picked by Lindzen. The other two by the PNAS Board. https://www.skepticalscience.com/lindze ... -2009.html

You can see the reviews here. http://www.masterresource.org/wp-conten ... ttach3.pdf All four reviewers rated the paper as not of suitable quality for publication. All four reviewers said that the conclusions reached in the paper were not justified by the contents of the paper. PNAS wrote back:

All of the reviews are thoughtful assessments of the strengths and weaknesses of the manuscript in question by leading experts, so they provide valuable hints for (possibly) improving the paper...I sympathize with Rev. 4's comments who concludes that the new paper simply has to explain why the opposite conclusions from the same data set by Trenberth et al. are flawed. If that could be achieved through a major review of the current version (hopefully accounting also for other important referee remarks) then the article would provide a crucial contribution to a most relevant scientific debate.


And so, of course, Lindzen wrote a new version of the paper that addressed the issues raised by the reviewers and it was published in the prestigious Proceedings of the Natural Academy of Sciences, changing the course of modern climate science.

Well, actually, he shopped around and finally got it published in an obscure Korean journal without addressing the issues raised by the reviewers.

I don't doubt that Lindzen honestly believes that he's right that the climate sensitivity is close to the radiative forcing of 1C. The problem is, as time has progressed and more science has been done, he's clung to that belief rather than accept the evidence. Hell, even Einstein had trouble accepting quantum mechanics. And he was damned Einstein. Lynn Margulis, a brilliant microbiologist, became an AIDS/HIV denier late in her career. It's not unusual to see retired scientists, or scientists late in their careers, clinging to pet theories that haven't been borne out by the evidence.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Water Dog wrote:RI, since I'm not a fair minded person, how about we both agree to just stop talking to each other?


If you'd like, I'd be happy to stop talking to you. I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that my focus isn't on talking to you. My focus is on talking about you and the science denier BS you copy and paste from denier websites.

i've got tons more of your nonsense to work through. But if you'll stop posting climate science denier crap, I'll eventually run out of material.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

Res Ipsa wrote:I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that my focus isn't on talking to you. My focus is on talking about you...

Okay. Then it's probably best that I see myself out of this conversation. Don't want to be impolite by sticking my nose where it doesn't belong.
_schreech
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _schreech »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Water Dog wrote:RI, since I'm not a fair minded person, how about we both agree to just stop talking to each other?


If you'd like, I'd be happy to stop talking to you. I thought I'd made it perfectly clear that my focus isn't on talking to you. My focus is on talking about you and the science denier ____ you copy and paste from denier websites.

i've got tons more of your nonsense to work through. But if you'll stop posting climate science denier crap, I'll eventually run out of material.


I have certainly enjoyed watching you slap him around. I have learned plenty and appreciate your efforts to engage his very transparent and ignorant denier tactics that are barely comparable to tier 2 mopologist tactics. I’m happy to keep it going by continuing to copy and paste crap from denier websites for you to engage if he decides he is tired of looking foolish.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
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_Themis
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Themis »

Water Dog wrote:Here's an interesting paper that's getting a little attention. The basic gist is that warming in the arctic may have little to do with CO2 and is instead being caused by pollution being brought over from east asia which is impacting natural cloud formations. Let's game this out. Let's say there is no global warming at all. Instead, there is regional warming due to whatever cause. What then? How does this impact the discussion? Right back to my point about process vs system. If this is true, it means the whole notion of global warming is false, the idea of a global temperature anomaly being fallacious. You could have a regional affect, a particular process within the system, which is throwing off all the numbers and makes the low resolution global values meaningless. But then the next question is what to do about it. Say there is no doom, on a global scale. CO2 isn't dangerous, we don't care about it. But, on a regional level, we do care about these other pollutants. Are ice levels in the arctic more important than industrialization in Asia? Would we go to war with China to save the ice in the arctic?

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 18GL079873


My concern with a lot of your posts suggest some real bias against climate science and a popular apologetic I see a lot with LDS apologia. The strategy being to create doubt in order to suggest a wait and see attitude even though more then enough good evidence is available to conclude we are warming the planet at a geologically fast rate. The article does not suggest in any way this explains most of the warming in the arctic, but is discussing a forcing factor in the climate and the need to further study what affects it has. The conclusion suggest changes in cloud cover that can have both positive and negative temperature forcing on how much heat gets trapped and how much sunlight reaches the surface. Nothing from that should make us think it will explain most of the warming in the artic, and since it blames fossil fuel consumption it is another argument for lowing our use of fossil fuels.
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_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

schreech wrote:I have certainly enjoyed watching you slap him around. I have learned plenty and appreciate your efforts to engage his very transparent and ignorant denier tactics that are barely comparable to tier 2 mopologist tactics. I’m happy to keep it going by continuing to copy and paste crap from denier websites for you to engage if he decides he is tired of looking foolish.

I've got an even better idea. I have had the opportunity to converse with a famous "denier," Anthony Watts, in the past. You may recognize the name, he is the proprietor of the Watts Up With That site. I know he accepts opinion pieces from guests of all flavors. How about you prepare a piece for his website? I'm sure he'd be more than happy to post it. The comments sure would be fun to watch.

RI wouldn't dare step out of his safe space.
_schreech
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _schreech »

Water Dog wrote:
schreech wrote:I have certainly enjoyed watching you slap him around. I have learned plenty and appreciate your efforts to engage his very transparent and ignorant denier tactics that are barely comparable to tier 2 mopologist tactics. I’m happy to keep it going by continuing to copy and paste ____ from denier websites for you to engage if he decides he is tired of looking foolish.

I've got an even better idea. I have had the opportunity to converse with a famous "denier," Anthony Watts, in the past. You may recognize the name, he is the proprietor of the Watts Up With That site. I know he accepts opinion pieces from guests of all flavors. How about you prepare a piece for his website? I'm sure he'd be more than happy to post it. The comments sure would be fun to watch.

RI wouldn't dare step out of his safe space.


I have no fookin idea what you are on about but are you talking about this guy?:

“Willard Anthony Watts (Anthony Watts) is a blogger, weathercaster and non-scientist, paid AGW denier who runs the website wattsupwiththat.com. He does not have a university qualification and has no climate credentials other than being a radio weather announcer. His website is parodied and debunked at the website wottsupwiththat.com Watts is on the payroll of the Heartland Institute, which itself is funded by polluting industries”

Sounds like it would be totally a valuable use of time. Lol.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_Themis
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Themis »

Water Dog wrote:
RI wouldn't dare step out of his safe space.


This forum doesn't provide him with any safety and this denier could come here and say all he wants. You certainly have not been stopped from saying what you want.
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_Water Dog
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Re: Lindzen got his @$$ kicked!

Post by _Water Dog »

Themis wrote:My concern with a lot of your posts suggest some real bias against climate science and a popular apologetic I see a lot with LDS apologia. The strategy being to create doubt in order to suggest a wait and see attitude even though more then enough good evidence is available to conclude we are warming the planet at a geologically fast rate. The article does not suggest in any way this explains most of the warming in the arctic, but is discussing a forcing factor in the climate and the need to further study what affects it has. The conclusion suggest changes in cloud cover that can have both positive and negative temperature forcing on how much heat gets trapped and how much sunlight reaches the surface. Nothing from that should make us think it will explain most of the warming in the artic, and since it blames fossil fuel consumption it is another argument for lowing our use of fossil fuels.

It very well could be another argument for lowering fossil fuel consumption. But how does that engage my comment? Process vs system, regional vs global, etc.? You say "more than enough good evidence," however that simply isn't true. I'm not sure why that's hard to accept, but it just isn't true. To you, the TBM, the evidence just seems "so obvious." To me, it's not at all compelling. You have very insignificant warming at best. Which hasn't been established as a trend because we don't have long enough data to say much about it. You have a theory. Which keeps failing in big ways. You have failed to prove it. And I don't really need to make that case, because the world has already made it for me. NOBODY IS LISTENING. Name a single country that is taking this seriously. Not a one. Nobody is reworking their economy to eliminate CO2. How do you live? We could make a list of all the hypocrisy. Does RI live on his own sustainable aquaponics farm driven by solar panels and pure love?
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