Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Lemmie]

What I still don't get is how the fact that Snow was not acting as an impartial investigator has become the main reason people discredit
all the victim reports.

[bolding added.]

Again, not one single person on this thread has said that, especially not the bolded part. So far, your only defense of Snow has been unsubstantiated opinion and these extreme, totally inaccurate assessments of how everyone who has a dissenting opinion has the identical extreme mindset where they uniformly think things like child abuse doesn't happen, or worse yet that they don't care that it happens. Its offensive and its untrue, and adds nothing to the discussion. If you feel the quotes and links are wrong present your data.

For the depositions, that attorneys literally wrote the documents they were going to give the judge before the depositions then repetitively asked me similar questions until they got me to say exactly what they needed to put in the blanks on their documents. It reminded me of painting by numbers. They completely distorted what happened.

Really? When you give evidence the lawyers make you give testimony that they write and then coach you to say? I'm not a lawyer, but that really doesn't sound right.

What I see is that the courtroom is not the right place to deal with this kind of problem. And as far as I understand, that's what the therapists in Utah decided after these cases. They moved into "We believe victims, but don't advise victims take this to court" mode.

Really? That doesn't fit their legal requirements at all. Can you document that?

This is the popular logic: "Therapist admits she wasn't impartial in her questioning of children so that's proof that the children weren't abused and that the therapist played a major role in a false panic that swept UTAH into hysteria. That's how I know babysitters don't sexually abuse kids or force them to drink feces." And yes, sometimes the logic really is that reductionistic. Other information about Snow or her actions gets added. Snow. Snow. Snow.

Whose popular logic? I have yet to see a single person use that type of logic.

[_Meadowchik]

I'm genuinely interested in what may be brought forward if this case moves forward. Trying to keep an open mind.

Well. I'm no fan of Mormonism, and if there were kids subjected to ritualized sexual abuse they ought to be brought to justice. So, it's not like I'm in the tank for anyone, but holy cow. This Dr. Snow character really is something else entirely.

- Doc

Seems so. When this suit broke, people supposedly close to the plaintiffs were talking about new evidence.

[_Mary]

One thing I want to point out, because this thread is about the Miles. All my opinion....

1. Snow's involvement in the Carstensen case wasn't as central as Cinepro is asserting.

2. Snow interviewed the female Doe's because she was asked to as the babysitter had been involved in the other Bountiful case. (Lemmie feels that babysitter is entirely innocent...I'm not so sure)

3. The female Doe's admitted to Snow that the female baby sitter and two older boys independently picked out from a year book had engaged in sexual play with them.

4. One of the Doe's told her mother of the touching parties. Snow wasn't involved. Snow did not implant that memory. It came from the female Doe.

5. One of the Doe's asked her mother what the difference was between what happened at the parties and daddy's marriage lessons. Carstensen's involvement was acknowledged by the female Doe to her mother. It wasn't a false memory implanted by Snow in this case.

These points don't seem to fit the details from your Introvigne source. Snow seems to have been the source of many of the accusations involving the sitter and the many, ultimately unsubstantiated accusations that ballooned from those interviews:

Dr. Snow claimed that the children had told her about the perpetrator, a teenage babysitter who was the daughter of Keith Burnham, the respected Bishop of the Lehi Eight Ward of the Mormon Church. Dr. Snow also asked to interview other Lehi children who had been attended by the same babysitter, and most of the families involved decided to comply. As a result of these further interviews, Dr. Snow announced that she had evidence that the babysitter and her parents, Bishop Burnham and his wife Shirley, had sexually abused a number of Lehi children. The Burnhams were also accused of abusing their own younger children, who were removed from their parents and placed in foster homes by the State Division of Family Services (weeks later, no evidence of abuse was discovered -- despite Dr. Snow's claims -- and they were returned to their home).

I can't imagine how horrifying it must have been to be part of the incredibly vast numbers of false accusations Snow made. And yes, I still feel the babysitter's suicide was most likely related to these accusations, which were never substantiated and were the direct outcome of Snow's incredibly irresponsible involvement.

Lemmie. There is no contradiction. None.

[_Mary]

1985 July, - Marion Smith was allegedly asked to give Relief Society talk on abuse at church meeting in Bountiful. “In July, 1985 I was asked to give a lesson to my ward Relief Society on the symptoms and treatment of child sexual abuse”
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p5]

1985 July, - Arden Brett Bullock's neighbour (Bountiful) took her 4 year old boy to Barbara Snow on recommendation of Marion Smith at ISAT because she was worried about inappropriate sexual comments to two other 4 year olds. On 2nd meeting it emerged that boys had allegedly been sexually abused by 2 eight year olds, one of whom was Brett Bullock's son.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p5]

[_Mary]

1986 January, - According to Marion Smith, Janice, a baby tender used by both of her daughters, was implicated by a child victim in the Bullock case.
[ABlipHereAndABlipThere p6]

All from the timeline. Hadfield was allegedly implicated in the Lehi abuse cases.

Bullock was implicated in the Bountiful case. I don't think Satanism featured in the Bountiful case. Introvigne isn't particularly clear on that.

"The press believed, for the most part that Hadfield was innocent. Reporters became still more suspicious of Dr. Snow's methods when they discovered that the therapist, who had moved from Lehi, had subsequently discovered other Satanic cults guilty of extended sexual abuse in Bountiful in 1986 and in the Salt Lake City area in 1988. No charges related to a specific "Satanic" abuse were filed in Bountiful, and a fourteen months probe was quietly dropped in Salt Lake in April 1988."

Rosebud, it is Introvigne who accuses the press of bias. He must have had access to far more newspaper reports than I can access online.

[_Mary]

Cinepro. The evidence we have in terms of witness statements suggests that the evidence of abuse from the Miles and Bill Carstensen came from the female Doe's to their mother. You can disbelieve that or accuse the children and mother of lying. But that is not what they are stating in the suit.

[_Mary]

Cinepro, see my quote from Introvigne above. No charges of Satanic abuse were ever filed in Bountiful.

That's a really, really important point to remember.

[Guest]

What the hell are you talking about, Rosebud? When presented with evidence that a child had been abused, therapists are required to report that to law enforcement. They don’t get to advise the victim not to go to court. You keep making these broad pronouncements based on absolutely no evidence.

And if attorneys asked you the same questions over and over at a deposition, you had pretty lousy legal representation.

Therapists are required to follow mandatory reporting. They do, when children are involved.

And then DCFS gets the cases. DCFS does most the investigating, as far as I understand. What happens from there? DCFS isn't that great of an agency. It employs newly graduated social workers, no?

Therapists can also say to parents, "Court is hard on children. Think about your child." Or, to adults, "Court isn't likely to get you far. I recommend you focus on healing."

Therapiists can also talk to each other about their opinions about court.

Therapists aren't much like attorneys, Res.

I am not making assumptions, nor am I required to provide written evidence for every assertion I make on this board. When have I ever done that? I provide written evidence when I choose. In the past, it was offered -after- I allowed the issue to play itself out publicly.

Let's let this play out. A lot has changed in the last couple decades.

[_Rosebud]

Cinepro, see my quote from Introvigne above. No charges of Satanic abuse were ever filed in Bountiful.

That's a really, really important point to remember.

The thing is that verbal charges of "Satanic Ritual Abuse" were made during the time period related to this case. That's probably what the investigators didn't investigate, and now the police records may be missing.... ?????

The fact that "Satanic" and "Ritual" we're on the board related to this case is part of the problem here.

"Satan" and "Ritual" are red herrings. Child abuse is child abuse.

It's also a good thing the verbal charges of "Satanic" "Ritual" abuse weren't part of what happened in Court in Boumtiful. And there's no need for the prosecution to bring it up in Court now. "Touching parties" are "touching parties" regardless of what costumes people are wearing. Or, maybe there were no costumes at the parties in question at all. But injections (of the children) and drinking feces were, if I'm remembering Maroon Smith's document correctly.

I'm guessing the defense might bring "Satanic" and "Ritual" up, even if the prosecution doesn't. I don't really see how it can be avoided. The words "Satanic" and "Ritual" are a good way to discredit victims and sway the public in the favor of alleged perpetrators. People say, "Nope.... didn't happen..... crazy therapists.... deranged victims.... 'Satanic Panic.'"

[_Rosebud]

How does one get sewn into a corpse? Like, that logistically doesn't work. Anyone who seems to be pro-Snow want to at least admit that Teal Swan, with Dr. Snow's help, was full of ____?

- Doc

I don't spend time listening to sensationalized podcasts. Or investigating the legitimacy of people like Teal.

I will say that I've heard of quite a few Reiki people who talk about these things. I am not surprised that there are people like Teal out there. People get to choose what they do with their lives.

I do think people on the side of the prosecution need to account for the reality that claims have been made that morticians were involved as predators. Either those were false memories or morticians were, in fact, involved. One or the other. Can't be both.

If they were false memories, that doesn't mean -all- aspects of the memories were false. But then how is anybody supposed to tell truth from reality?

As far as how to really sew someone into a corpse???? Don't have any clue. I'm not a mortician.

I do think it's worth reminding people that if we assume there may be any accuracy to this, children only needed to be convinced that things were happening. Things didn't really need to happen in order for them to be reported as happening. It's easy to convince children of lots of things.

What a mess.......