Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

[_Res Ipsa]

I'm re-reading the Miles motion to dismiss.

Some of the points I am finding to be disingenuous. They fail to note that the children disclosed to the mother first in the case of the Miles and the Perpetrator. They fail to note the alleged confession of the perpetrator. They fail to note which of the 5 sex rings excluded tales of cannibalism. They fail to note the medical evidence.

They just want to blame it all on Snow, Snow, Snow. She planted their memories. It's her fault. She has caused them endless damage. I wish it were that simple.

Mary, you can extract useful information from legal pleadings, but you have to approach them with an understanding that it is the job of the attorneys to defend their clients. They have an ethical duty to do that. Each party involved with rely on certain selected facts and, at least in theory, all of the relevant facts will end up before the judge or jury.

So, you can use stuff in the pleadings to nail down dates or, if affidavits are attached, to dive into those to ferret out facts. The Miles motion is a motion to dismiss, and so it actually is based on the contents of the complaint. All the "Background" information is there to give the judge some context, and it is absolutely biased. Judges get that, and so do all the lawyers. Plaintiffs' response to the motion will undoubtedly do the same thing.

The only parts of the motion that might be useful for the outline are the actual quotes from papers or testimony. You already have the article by Snow and Sorenson. Bullock v. Carver is a habeas corpus petition that involves the same issues as State v. Bullock, so nothing new there. The quotes from Paperdolls are relevant to Snow's techniques, and it looks like going through that book might be helpful. Otherwise, I don't see anything relevant in the motion to the timeline. Because the issue on the motion is statute of limitations, it's very possible that plaintiffs will submit affidavits with specific events and times as part of their response. I'd watch for that.

[Guest]

I see Res ipsa has weighed in, I'm glad he mentioned this,

Miles motion is a motion to dismiss, and so it actually is based on the contents of the complaint...

because according to the motion of what the Miles' are accused of, Snow's involvement is completely relevant:

DOE 1 MALE DEFENDANT and DOE 2 FEMALE DEFENDANT led what they called “touching parties” at their home and at the Perpetrator’s home.

These “touching parties” were sometimes attended by acquaintances and friends of Defendants and Perpetrator. In addition, a 16-year-old babysitter, who was a young woman in this same LDS ward, would be present from time to time. It is believed that this babysitter was both a victim of crimes against her and a perpetrator of crimes. This 16-year-old babysitter is no longer living as it is believed that she, like the Perpetrator, committed suicide. The parties would occur one to two times per month, seemingly whenever there was opportunity for the adults to isolate the children.

8. During these “touching parties,” some of the Plaintiff’s in Plaintiff Group 1 would be forced to undress and perform acts of sexual perversion.

Typically, the “touching parties” would begin with the adults instructing the children to “put on a show” for them, including dancing and ending with the children undressing, while the adults applauded and encouraged. Once the
children were naked, Defendants, Perpetrator and any others present would....

And so on. These are the details that Snow added that have already been addressed and found to be insupportable by any evidence other than Snow's discredited testimony. This is well beyond any abuse by the person referred to as "perpetrator," which, If I recall correctly, no one has disputed.

[_Mary]

I'm re-reading the Miles motion to dismiss.

Some of the points I am finding to be disingenuous. They fail to note that the children disclosed to the mother first in the case of the Miles and the Perpetrator. They fail to note the alleged confession of the perpetrator. They fail to note which of the 5 sex rings excluded tales of cannibalism. They fail to note the medical evidence.

They just want to blame it all on Snow, Snow, Snow. She planted their memories. It's her fault. She has caused them endless damage. I wish it were that simple.

Mary, you can extract useful information from legal pleadings, but you have to approach them with an understanding that it is the job of the attorneys to defend their clients. They have an ethical duty to do that. Each party involved with rely on certain selected facts and, at least in theory, all of the relevant facts will end up before the judge or jury.

So, you can use stuff in the pleadings to nail down dates or, if affidavits are attached, to dive into those to ferret out facts. The Miles motion is a motion to dismiss, and so it actually is based on the contents of the complaint. All the "Background" information is there to give the judge some context, and it is absolutely biased. Judges get that, and so do all the lawyers. Plaintiffs' response to the motion will undoubtedly do the same thing.

The only parts of the motion that might be useful for the outline are the actual quotes from papers or testimony. You already have the article by Snow and Sorenson. Bullock v. Carver is a habeas corpus petition that involves the same issues as State v. Bullock, so nothing new there. The quotes from Paperdolls are relevant to Snow's techniques, and it looks like going through that book might be helpful. Otherwise, I don't see anything relevant in the motion to the timeline. Because the issue on the motion is statute of limitations, it's very possible that plaintiffs will submit affidavits with specific events and times as part of their response. I'd watch for that.

Thanks . Very helpful.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?i ... ype=NGPSID

The disciplinary notice alleged Snow convinced a male relative he was sexually abused by his father. It also contended Snow convinced a female relative she was the victim of Satanic abuse and military testing. When state investigators questioned Snow, she allegedly provided made-up notes about those sessions.

In the agreement, Snow admitted destroying a relative's computer equipment and adding two incorrect dates to her psychotherapy notes. The correct dates were located in other portions of the files, and the state ultimately did not find this to be unprofessional conduct.

What the...

- Doc

[_Res Ipsa]

Mary, although Snow's paper is behind a paywall, there are 40 papers that have cited it. Some of those are not behind paywalls. Reading them can give some insight into what is in Snow's papers and how it is generally viewed in the literature. For example: http://www.wondercatdesign.com/mecasa/i ... d%20sa.pdf

The paper is critical of the Snow paper, but I'm just using it as an example of what you can find. I stopped looking after finding the first paper that I could access.

[_Mary]

I see Res ipsa has weighed in, I'm glad he mentioned this,

Miles motion is a motion to dismiss, and so it actually is based on the contents of the complaint...

because according to the motion of what the Miles' are accused of, Snow's involvement is completely relevant:

DOE 1 MALE DEFENDANT and DOE 2 FEMALE DEFENDANT led what they called “touching parties” at their home and at the Perpetrator’s home.

These “touching parties” were sometimes attended by acquaintances and friends of Defendants and Perpetrator. In addition, a 16-year-old babysitter, who was a young woman in this same LDS ward, would be present from time to time. It is believed that this babysitter was both a victim of crimes against her and a perpetrator of crimes. This 16-year-old babysitter is no longer living as it is believed that she, like the Perpetrator, committed suicide. The parties would occur one to two times per month, seemingly whenever there was opportunity for the adults to isolate the children.

8. During these “touching parties,” some of the Plaintiff’s in Plaintiff Group 1 would be forced to undress and perform acts of sexual perversion.

Typically, the “touching parties” would begin with the adults instructing the children to “put on a show” for them, including dancing and ending with the children undressing, while the adults applauded and encouraged. Once the
children were naked, Defendants, Perpetrator and any others present would....

And so on. These are the details that Snow added that have already been addressed and found to be insupportable by any evidence other than Snow's discredited testimony. This is well beyond any abuse by the person referred to as "perpetrator," which, If I recall correctly, no one has disputed.

I am absolutely convinced that Carstensen was an abuser. I am convinced he exacted horrific abuse on his own children, his step children and others.

The perpetrators alleged [recorded] account of the involvement of the Miles, the babysitter, and his friend Dan is something I get stuck on...but that has to be countered by the Miles own children who say that none of it happened.

What an utter mess for all involved.

[_Mary]

Mary, although Snow's paper is behind a paywall, there are 40 papers that have cited it. Some of those are not behind paywalls. Reading them can give some insight into what is in Snow's papers and how it is generally viewed in the literature. For example: http://www.wondercatdesign.com/mecasa/i ... d%20sa.pdf

The paper is critical of the Snow paper, but I'm just using it as an example of what you can find. I stopped looking after finding the first paper that I could access.

I have been digging through Google scholar. I'll look at the citations.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://www.questia.com/library/sociolo ... tual-abuse

Despite its recurrent use as a motif in movies and books, ritual abuse is not so common in reality. The Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) found in the 1980s that the authorities earmark $200 million for the combat and search for Satanic groups which in the end turn out to be nonexistent. Other studies carried out in America and the Netherlands give evidence that ritual abuse is not a major social problem.

The ritual abuse panic in the United States was to a certain extent triggered by a 1980 book, entitled Michelle Remembers, written by Michelle Smith and her husband Lawrence Pazder. The book claimed to be an autobiography of a woman with repressed memories of Satanic ritual abuse during her childhood. Pazder, a Canadian psychiatrist, was attributed the credits for coining the term ritual abuse. Later, the book was discredited by several investigations. However, its popularity encouraged the surge of reports about ritual abuse cases.

In response to the strong interest in society, a 1991 U.S. government-commissioned report sought to obtain trustworthy data of ritual abuse of children. The study was based on interviews with 10,000 therapists, social workers and police officers. The results of the survey detected some examples of ritual abuse in families. Such cases included violence through exorcism and even incest. However, the study reassured the general public that such cases were very rare.

However, it seems that legend, fiction and Hollywood are somewhat more powerful than the U.S. government's more measured attempts to assess levels of ritual abuse. One poll showed that 90 percent of adults in Utah believed that Satanic ritual abuse was a fact in their state.

- Doc

[_cinepro]

Look, we know even from the 1995 AG report that there was one substantiated account of ritual abuse because the parents admitted it. They admitted other adults were involved. It happens. It's hopefully rare.

What was this case?

As I've already pointed out many times, there are several documented false confessions in these cases. Did this case have any other corroboration? If they admitted it and then produced a bunch of robes, pictures and videos, syringes, tools to dispose of bodies etc., then you'd have something.

There are five false confessions on this list:

National Registry of Exonerations - Child Sex Abuse Hysteria

[_cinepro]

What the...

- Doc

And then there's this story. I'd love to find more details about it.

Indeed, there is evidence that suggests that Snow's beliefs have had more of an effect on the final outcome of her investigations than the memories of the children she questions. Because the details of several alleged ritual abuse cases she had investigated were so suspiciously similar, Utah police deliberately fed her false information to see if her suggestive interviewing techniques were influencing the children's allegations. Soon enough this information appeared in the answers of the children she interviewed.

The Mouths of Babes