Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

cinepro wrote:
What was this case?

As I've already pointed out many times, there are several documented false confessions in these cases. Did this case have any other corroboration? If they admitted it and then produced a bunch of robes, pictures and videos, syringes, tools to dispose of bodies etc., then you'd have something.

There are five false confessions on this list:

National Registry of Exonerations - Child Sex Abuse Hysteria


It's on the timeline Cinepro.

"However, [p3] outlines “In another case, three adult female children recalled memories of Satanic sexual abuse that occurred while they were very young. The victims, in separate interviews discussed robed ceremonies, alters, candles, animal sacrifices and extreme physical and sexual abuse. Since their recollections appeared to show some consistency, an in-depth investigation was launched. At the conclusion of the investigation, the suspects were interviewed. Both the mother and the father admitted to serious sexual and physical crimes against the children and named several other individuals who were also involved. The case, however could not be prosecuted because the statute of limitations had run. The crimes occurred over 25 years ago, but this case does indicate that serious sexual and physical abuse can happen and that it is perpetuated by those who cloak their crimes in ritualistic activity"
https://digitallibrary.utah.gov/awweb/a ... item=72457
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Utah also has self -styled prophets like Arvin Shreeve to deal with.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Mary wrote:
cinepro wrote:
What was this case?

As I've already pointed out many times, there are several documented false confessions in these cases. Did this case have any other corroboration? If they admitted it and then produced a bunch of robes, pictures and videos, syringes, tools to dispose of bodies etc., then you'd have something.

There are five false confessions on this list:

National Registry of Exonerations - Child Sex Abuse Hysteria


It's on the timeline Cinepro.

"However, [p3] outlines “In another case, three adult female children recalled memories of Satanic sexual abuse that occurred while they were very young. The victims, in separate interviews discussed robed ceremonies, alters, candles, animal sacrifices and extreme physical and sexual abuse. Since their recollections appeared to show some consistency, an in-depth investigation was launched. At the conclusion of the investigation, the suspects were interviewed. Both the mother and the father admitted to serious sexual and physical crimes against the children and named several other individuals who were also involved. The case, however could not be prosecuted because the statute of limitations had run. The crimes occurred over 25 years ago, but this case does indicate that serious sexual and physical abuse can happen and that it is perpetuated by those who cloak their crimes in ritualistic activity"
https://digitallibrary.utah.gov/awweb/a ... item=72457


That doesn't answer my question. When I ask "What was this case?", I mean where was it? When was it? Who were these people? What were the conditions under which the interviews were done? What, exactly, was being claimed? What were the specific crimes that were being admitted to?

In light of everything we know about the cases of that era, you'll have to forgive me for not taking their word for it.
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:
cinepro wrote:
What was this case?

As I've already pointed out many times, there are several documented false confessions in these cases. Did this case have any other corroboration? If they admitted it and then produced a bunch of robes, pictures and videos, syringes, tools to dispose of bodies etc., then you'd have something.

There are five false confessions on this list:

National Registry of Exonerations - Child Sex Abuse Hysteria


It's on the timeline Cinepro.

"However, [p3] outlines “In another case, three adult female children recalled memories of Satanic sexual abuse that occurred while they were very young. The victims, in separate interviews discussed robed ceremonies, alters, candles, animal sacrifices and extreme physical and sexual abuse. Since their recollections appeared to show some consistency, an in-depth investigation was launched. At the conclusion of the investigation, the suspects were interviewed. Both the mother and the father admitted to serious sexual and physical crimes against the children and named several other individuals who were also involved. The case, however could not be prosecuted because the statute of limitations had run. The crimes occurred over 25 years ago, but this case does indicate that serious sexual and physical abuse can happen and that it is perpetuated by those who cloak their crimes in ritualistic activity"
https://digitallibrary.utah.gov/awweb/a ... item=72457

cinepro wrote:That doesn't answer my question. When I ask "What was this case?", I mean where was it? When was it? Who were these people? What were the conditions under which the interviews were done? What, exactly, was being claimed? What were the specific crimes that were being admitted to?

In light of everything we know about the cases of that era, you'll have to forgive me for not taking their word for it.

That case refers to Anne Johnson Davis' recovered memories. She wrote the memoir, Hell Minus One.
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

That doesn't answer my question. When I ask "What was this case?", I mean where was it? When was it? Who were these people? What were the conditions under which the interviews were done? What, exactly, was being claimed? What were the specific crimes that were being admitted to?

In light of everything we know about the cases of that era, you'll have to forgive me for not taking their word for it.


Oh for crying out loud. It was part of the 1995 Attorney General's Report, Cinepro. Page 3., Read the darned report. The details are there. You know, the one that found no substantiated evidence of ritual abuse in the majority of cases. The one that supports your view in the majority of cases.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie, that's on the time line also.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:
That doesn't answer my question. When I ask "What was this case?", I mean where was it? When was it? Who were these people? What were the conditions under which the interviews were done? What, exactly, was being claimed? What were the specific crimes that were being admitted to?

In light of everything we know about the cases of that era, you'll have to forgive me for not taking their word for it.


Oh for crying out loud. It was part of the 1995 Attorney General's Report, Cinepro. Page 3., Read the darned report. The details are there. You know, the one that found no substantiated evidence of ritual abuse in the majority of cases. The one that supports your view in the majority of cases.

Mary, your quotes from the 1995 report make no reference to Anne Johnson Davis. I see you added a link to her memoir, and to the DesNews 1995 article, and now that I know who it is that page 3 refers to, I see the connection, but it's not obvious from just reading your chronology.

Maybe a quote from the desnews article explaining the connection would help.
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Thanks Lemmie. I'll amend it.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

From res ipsa's article link, a fascinating review of Snow and Sorenson's two papers:
Because the Sorensen and Snow study is most frequently cited as supporting the notion that sexually abused children deny and recant (see Table 2, Column 6), it is important to carefully review this study and the characteristics of the sample.

Sorensen and Snow (1991) selected 116 cases of confirmed CSA from a larger sample of 633 children who were involved in CSA allegations from 1985 to 1989. Sorensen and Snow reported that 72% of children denied abuse when first questioned by either a parent or an investigative interviewer; only 7% of these deniers immediately moved into an “active disclosure” stage, which involved detailed, coherent, first-person descriptions of the abuse. Seventy-eight percent moved into a “tentative disclosure” stage, with partial, vague, or vacillating disclosures of sexual abuse. Eventually, 96% of children made an active disclosure....

This raises the issue that the reported patterns of disclosure were consequences of the specific therapeutic practices (of the authors)
rather than of reflections of the manner in which children disclose abuse under formal interviewing conditions. This raises the hypothesis that many of the children in their sample may not have been abused (see Ceci & Bruck, 1995).

A glimpse of the authors’ clinical practices and cases can be gleaned from a review of the social science and legal records.

First, in 1990, Snow and Sorensen(1990) published an article entitled “Ritualistic Child Abuse in a Neighborhood Setting,” in which ritualistic abuse was defined as repetitive, bizarre sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of children that included supernatural themes and/or religious activities.

Of the 575 cases of alleged child abuse in which the authors served as therapists and/or evaluators between 1985 and 1988, 52 were identified as ritualistic child abuse. Of the 52 children, 39 were allegedly abused in a neighborhood setting. In a number of these cases, the children were first brought in for therapy because of allegations of ritualistic abuse by a nonfamily member; during the course of therapy, the children came to make the following types of disclosures:

Cross-dressing, masks, and costumes (31%) included red and black robes, men’s wearing of women’s erotic underwear and dresses, clowns and devil’s masks, capes, and costumes such as a lion, bear, snake, witch, devil, Darth Vader, vampires, skeleton, and leather loin cloths.

The killing of children and infants was identified by six children in four neighborhoods (15%). Thirteen percent of the children said that they had participated in eating flesh. (Snow & Sorensen, 1990, p. 483)


The disclosures resulted in trials and convictions of two adults. One of the cases, State v. Hadfield (1990), was successfully appealed. In addition, five adolescents from other neighborhoods were accused, three of whom were acquitted, and two pleaded guilty.

There is a high probability that a number of the children classified as ritually abused were included in Sorensen and Snow’s (1991) study, which sampled the same but slightly smaller population that was described in their 1990 study. In addition, because the accused in their neighborhood cases either made pleas or were convicted, these cases met criteria for substantiated cases of abuse.

The problem with the inclusion of these types of cases into studies of disclosure patterns is that there is no evidence to support the once popular belief that ritualistic sexual abuse is common (see Nathan & Snedekor, 1995, for examples).

Numerous authorities have failed to find any physical evidence to support the many allegations that have been made and that were the basis of many of the multivictim, multiperpetrator criminal trials of the 1980s and early 1990s (e.g., Lanning, 1991).

Furthermore, it appears that the large proportion of reported cases of ritualistic abuse can be accounted for by the practices of a small minority of clinicians (Bottoms, Shaver, & Goodman, 1996; Lanning, 1991).


Because Sorensen and Snow diagnosed so many “ritually abused” children in their practice, this, by inference, leads to the possibility that these children’s allegations were a product of the practices and beliefs of these clinicians. This information would undermine the reliability of the results of the Sorensen and Snow (1991) disclosure study, rendering them scientifically doubtful.

Reviews of the court records for two trials in which patients of Snow testified about allegations of sexual abuse provide support for the view that the children’s allegations were associated with biased suggestive interviewing practices:

Defendant offered several witnesses at trial who described the suggestive and coercive interviewing techniques allegedly utilized by Dr. Snow and one police officer who described how the children in Dr. Snow’s care were able to reproduce specific information after he had suggested to Dr. Snow that such information should be presented in their statements. (State v. Hadfield, 1990, p. 508)

On the basis of Snow’s testimony in State v. Bullock (1989), one of the judges in the case concluded,

Indeed, Dr. Snow herself admitted that she used interrogation procedures that were not intended to sift truth from error. She forthrightly admitted she was not a neutral interviewer; rather she was “an ally for the child”, “biased”, and not a fact collector like the police. . . .

She also testified in effect that there was nothing in her methods that served as a standard for determining the truthfulness of the stories she produced by her interrogation. . . .

But since she starts an interrogation with the assumption that abuse occurred, she then proceeds to prove that point. . . .

In short, any claim that scientific principles or Dr. Snow’s own expertise and experience validated her conclusions and procedures is devastatingly refuted by her own statement, “I didn’t believe any of those kids when they told me it didn’t happen.”

(State v. Bullock, 1989, p. 175)


Given the nature of the “validated” cases in the Sorensen and Snow (1991) sample, as well as in the apparently biased and suggestive interviewing/therapeutic techniques, the results of the study are uninterpretable.
http://www.wondercatdesign.com/mecasa/i ... d%20sa.pdf

[bolding added]
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie, I read the article too. It isn't the only opinion out there and it supports and accepts the notion that Ritualized Sexual Abuse is rare.

There are some factors that make Utah unique imho.

The most salient is the high religiosity of many Utahns. And the background of their Mormon faith. That would include polygamous notions theologically and also the doctrine of man becoming God. Notions of theosis and patriarchy and the once common LDS belief that God had sex with his own young virgin daughter could easily be turned and perverted into something at the extreme end of sinister, as could the then current temple rituals.

Here's more salient sections from the same article.



"First, in 1990, Snow and Sorensen(1990) published an article entitled “Ritualistic Child Abuse in a Neighborhood Setting,” in which ritualistic abuse was defined as repetitive, bizarre sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of children that included supernatural themes and/or religious activities."


Definitions are important, and defining what can and can't be categorised under ritual abuse will effect numbers together with the distinct beliefs and religiosity of the population.

Of the 575 cases of alleged child abuse in which the authors served as therapists and/or evaluators between 1985 and 1988, 52 were identified as ritualistic child abuse. Of the 52 children, 39 were allegedly abused in a neighborhood setting. In a number of these cases, the children were first brought in for therapy because of allegations of ritualistic abuse by a nonfamily member;


Statistically, that means less than 10% included a ritualized element under the authors definition. If only 39 were abused in a neighbourhood setting then that brings down the percentage occurrence further.

So, of the cases that Snow dealt with ritualized elements were statistically uncommon when compared to the sample size of 575.

Those were my thoughts when reading the article, anyway.

We also are told that the Carstensen children revealed their alleged abuse by the father and the Miles to their mother, not the therapist.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
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