Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:Lemmie, I read the article too. It isn't the only opinion out there and it supports and accepts the notion that Ritualized Sexual Abuse is rare.

Ok, it would be interesting to see those other opinions you are referring to, can you post them, please?
mary wrote:There are some factors that make Utah unique imho.

The most salient is the high religiosity of many Utahns. And the background of their Mormon faith. That would include polygamous notions theologically and also the doctrine of man becoming God. Notions of theosis and patriarchy and the once common LDS belief that God had sex with his own young virgin daughter could easily be turned and perverted into something at the extreme end of sinister, as could the then current temple rituals.

Interesting, do you have any documentation that supports your opinion? Because according to the researchers I quoted, they are unaware of that:
The problem with the inclusion of these types of cases into studies of disclosure patterns is that there is no evidence to support the once popular belief that ritualistic sexual abuse is common (see Nathan & Snedekor, 1995, for examples)
Any documentation you have for your opinion would be interesting.

mary wrote:Here's more salient sections from the same article.



"First, in 1990, Snow and Sorensen(1990) published an article entitled “Ritualistic Child Abuse in a Neighborhood Setting,” in which ritualistic abuse was defined as repetitive, bizarre sexual, physical, and psychological abuse of children that included supernatural themes and/or religious activities."


Definitions are important, and defining what can and can't be categorised under ritual abuse will effect numbers together with the distinct beliefs and religiosity of the population.

Agreed. Definitions are important.
mary wrote:
Of the 575 cases of alleged child abuse in which the authors served as therapists and/or evaluators between 1985 and 1988, 52 were identified as ritualistic child abuse. Of the 52 children, 39 were allegedly abused in a neighborhood setting. In a number of these cases, the children were first brought in for therapy because of allegations of ritualistic abuse by a nonfamily member;


Statistically, that means less than 10% included a ritualized element under the authors definition. If only 39 were abused in a neighbourhood setting then that brings down the percentage occurrence further.

So, of the cases that Snow dealt with ritualized elements were statistically uncommon when compared to the sample size of 575.

Those were my thoughts when reading the article, anyway.
I think you are missing the point of the statistics provided. They were using them to note this:
There is a high probability that a number of the children classified as ritually abused were included in Sorensen and Snow’s (1991) study, which sampled the same but slightly smaller population that was described in their 1990 study. In addition, because the accused in their neighborhood cases either made pleas or were convicted, these cases met criteria for substantiated cases of abuse.

The problem with the inclusion of these types of cases into studies of disclosure patterns is that there is no evidence to support the once popular belief that ritualistic sexual abuse is common (see Nathan & Snedekor, 1995, for examples).

As far as percentages of ritual abuse go, the relevant statistic is not the percentage of Snow's cases, but rather that Snow's cases represent an inordinate amount of the claimed cases:
Furthermore, it appears that the large proportion of reported cases of ritualistic abuse can be accounted for by the practices of a small minority of clinicians (Bottoms, Shaver, & Goodman, 1996; Lanning, 1991).


mary wrote:We also are told that the Carstensen children revealed their alleged abuse by the father and the Miles to their mother, not the therapist.

Told by who?

ETA: I see cinepro addressed this.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Mary wrote:We also are told that the Carstensen children revealed their alleged abuse by the father and the Miles to their mother, not the therapist.


The children may have accused Bill (the dad) first to the mom (after months of counseling sessions), but the accusations about the Miles seem to have first appeared during a counseling session:

As our grandchildren’s therapy continued, the circle of perpetrators widened to
include Dick and Brenda Miles.

https://archive.org/stream/ABlipHereAnd ... e_djvu.txt
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

cinepro wrote:
The children may have accused Bill (the dad) first to the mom (after months of counseling sessions), but the accusations about the Miles seem to have first appeared during a counseling session:

As our grandchildren’s therapy continued, the circle of perpetrators widened to
include Dick and Brenda Miles.


https://archive.org/stream/ABlipHereAnd ... e_djvu.txt


That's wholely ambiguous Cinepro and the timeline indicates there were no months and months of counselling sessions

"1986 January, – Mother 1 (Marion Smith's daughter), and perpetrator heard from Marion Smith that their babysitter, Janice, was implicated by a neighbour's child. “Bill (perpetrator) insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow” Initially, Snow clears the children of being sexually abused. On hearing their sitter was implicated, Snow interviewed one daughter for two hours when she provided a claim of abuse by babysitter. Later claims she had also been abused by two [unnamed] teenage boys as well. Mother 1 allegedly meets with bishopric who were viewed as helpful at first. Def 1 was 2nd counsellor in bishopric and was absent from this meeting.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p6-7., see also 2018 Lawsuit, C15, p5 https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit ... president/ ]

1986 January/February
, - Jane Doe 1 allegedly reveals to Mother 1 that Def 1 and Def 2 held touching parties. Apostle Nelson turns up soon after and sits with daughter at sacrament meeting.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p7., see also 2018 Lawsuit, C16, p5; C17, p5; C22, p6, Exhibit 6, https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit ... president/ ]

1986 February 13th, – Jane Doe 1 allegedly asks Mother 1 what difference was between what Def 1 and Def 2 do, and daddy’s marriage lessons.
[ https://archive.org/details/ABlipHereAndABlipThere p8., see also 2018 Lawsuit, C18, p5 and C22, p6, Exhibit 6, https://fox13now.com/2018/10/03/lawsuit ... president/ ]


The witness testimony suggests that this all happened in pretty quick succession between January and Feb 13th of 1986.

(That timeline is actually very useful if you wanted to use it. I have tried to be scrupulously fair and balanced in dating and linking)
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

mary wrote:
(That timeline is actually very useful if you wanted to use it. I have tried to be scrupulously fair and balanced in dating and linking)

Mary, I appreciate that you are attempting to be balanced and fair, but you have to understand that the Marion Smith document that you use (A Blip Here and There) for the vast majority of your timeline is NOT considered to be a reliable account.

The interaction between Marion Smith and Barbara Snow muddies the waters irreparably.
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie, I'll make that my project today. Rosebud noted the usefulness of a literature review. From what I am reading, the debate rages on...

The Lanning Report (US) and the Fontaine Report (UK) seem to have been influential in formulating public opinion at least in English speaking countries.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:Lemmie, I'll make that my project today. Rosebud noted the usefulness of a literature review. From what I am reading, the debate rages on...

Really? From what I am reading, the debate ended a very long time ago.
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Lemmie wrote:
mary wrote:
(That timeline is actually very useful if you wanted to use it. I have tried to be scrupulously fair and balanced in dating and linking)

Mary, I appreciate that you are attempting to be balanced and fair, but you have to understand that the Marion Smith document that you use (A Blip Here and There) for the vast majority of your timeline is NOT considered to be a reliable account.

The interaction between Marion Smith and Barbara Snow muddies the waters irreparably.



I know you are seeing that source as unreliable Lemmie. I wonder at why you discount her entirely. She is also the children's grandmother.

I have tried to include the witness statements also.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Each statement has two sources.. did you see that?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Really? From what I am reading, the debate ended a very long time ago


What are you saying here? That ritual abuse does not exist under any definition, or that it is a rare subsection of abuse in general? If rare, we almost certainly agree.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:Each statement has two sources.. did you see that?

I would have to disagree that you have two sources supporting each statement made by Marion Smith. I looked again at your chronology, in most cases it is just Marion Smith's word. In some cases, you add in a fox news article about the lawsuit, that quotes the lawsuit, which quotes Marion Smith. That's not two sources. In several other cases you have a second link. Of the first two I looked at, one was an obituary of the Dr. that Smith referred to in her quote, another was a link to the hospital, the work location of a person that Smith referred to in a quote.

I stopped there, because while it's helpful, none of those second links would be considered as a second source supporting Marion Smith's statements.
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