Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Res Ipsa wrote:Just to chime in: the problem that I see here is that the information in the affidavits and the information in the Smith paper can't really be verified as independent. We have testimony in other cases that Snow would tell potential victims about what other alleged victims had said. It's also pretty clear that whatever happened has been discussed within the family over and over until we get the narrative that appears in the Smith paper. Personally, given Smith's role as founder of therapy organization and her status as grandmother of the alleged victims, I would consider her a biased source and would be very cautious about accepting her claims without some independent verification. On the other hand, she draws a pretty good roadmap of how the accusations got started and spread throughout the ward.



Rep, are you suggesting that Mother 1 is unreliable?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:Lemmie. You argued that there was only one source that states Jane Does told their mother before they told the therapist. Marion Smith.

I absolutely refute that.

What? Here is the argument I made:
I am making a factual statement that the account by Marion Smith and the statements in the lawsuit are so intertwined that they cannot be considered to be two independent sources that corroborate each other.

Additionally, the language is virtually identical to Smith's account, which is your first reference. Your two links do not constitute two separate sources.
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

And you think Mother 1 in the lawsuit is lying?
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Mary wrote:And you think Mother 1 in the lawsuit is lying?

That's irrelevant. The evidence indicates that the testimony is unreliable because of the influence of Snow, so in my opinion imputing an additional personal motive to the giver of unreliable information isn't necessary.

Look again at what res Ipsa said:

Just to chime in: the problem that I see here is that the information in the affidavits and the information in the Smith paper can't really be verified as independent. We have testimony in other cases that Snow would tell potential victims about what other alleged victims had said. It's also pretty clear that whatever happened has been discussed within the family over and over until we get the narrative that appears in the Smith paper. Personally, given Smith's role as founder of therapy organization and her status as grandmother of the alleged victims, I would consider her a biased source and would be very cautious about accepting her claims without some independent verification. On the other hand, she draws a pretty good roadmap of how the accusations got started and spread throughout the ward.
[bolding added.]
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

I just want to pop in and say thanks to the participants on this thread. Even though I add nothing to the discussion I've been following because it's incredibly interesting, and has led me down various googles. I've learned so much more than I ever should've about SRA and Lehi, UT than I had any right to know. Because who the “F” would ever google this crap?

:)

So, thanks and wow. This is the reason why I'm sadly addicted to this forum.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I just want to pop in and say thanks to the participants on this thread. Even though I add nothing to the discussion I've been following because it's incredibly interesting, and has led me down various googles. I've learned so much more than I ever should've about SRA and Lehi, Utah than I had any right to know. Because who the ____ would ever google this ____?

:)

So, thanks and wow. This is the reason why I'm sadly addicted to this forum.

- Doc


Yeah, it's nice to know that now I have "reflex anal dilation test" in my google history.
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

cinepro wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I just want to pop in and say thanks to the participants on this thread. Even though I add nothing to the discussion I've been following because it's incredibly interesting, and has led me down various googles. I've learned so much more than I ever should've about SRA and Lehi, Utah than I had any right to know. Because who the ____ would ever google this ____?

:)

So, thanks and wow. This is the reason why I'm sadly addicted to this forum.

- Doc


Yeah, it's nice to know that now I have "reflex anal dilation test" in my google history.

Omg I know. Worse still, it gets shared. My (nevermo) husband recently asked me about something I searched; apparently because we share a gmail account for the family, our search histories are shared also. Needless to say, I had some explaining to do. Luckily, we've been married long enough that no Mormon thing surprises him anymore, no matter how bizarre. He does get quite a bit of amusement out of it, however, so there's that.
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mary wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Just to chime in: the problem that I see here is that the information in the affidavits and the information in the Smith paper can't really be verified as independent. We have testimony in other cases that Snow would tell potential victims about what other alleged victims had said. It's also pretty clear that whatever happened has been discussed within the family over and over until we get the narrative that appears in the Smith paper. Personally, given Smith's role as founder of therapy organization and her status as grandmother of the alleged victims, I would consider her a biased source and would be very cautious about accepting her claims without some independent verification. On the other hand, she draws a pretty good roadmap of how the accusations got started and spread throughout the ward.



Rep, are you suggesting that Mother 1 is unreliable?


I'm suggesting that what she has to say doesn't independently verify the stories told by the children or Smith. It's really all one story, the product of intermingling the actual recollections of the kids, the mother, the grandmother, and the therapists. After 30 years of thinking about it, talking about it, writing and/or reading about it, we have the current narrative. I suspect that when it's compared with whatever contemporaneous evidence still exists, that there will be some important discrepancies. That's not due to any fault or failing of the mother. That's just what happens with human recollection over time and when one is dealing with this type of shared story.

I find it perfectly credible that the perp sexually abused his kids. I base that on what we have of the Johns Hopkins records and the testimony of the children from the second marriage. We don't have much to go on at this point, but if I was a betting man, I'd bet that the abuse of the kids from the first marriage resembled the abuse of the kids from the second marriage than the story they are all telling today. But to figure that out would require going over all of the therapist's notes and reviewing recordings of the therapy sessions.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Lemmie wrote:

Omg I know. Worse still, it gets shared. My (nevermo) husband recently asked me about something I searched; apparently because we share a gmail account for the family, our search histories are shared also. Needless to say, I had some explaining to do. Luckily, we've been married long enough that no Mormon thing surprises him anymore, no matter how bizarre. He does get quite a bit of amusement out of it, however, so there's that.


LOL! I really don't ever want to explain why I have both Satanic Ritual Child Abuse and Christian Identity websites in my search history.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

I'm suggesting that what she has to say doesn't independently verify the stories told by the children or Smith. It's really all one story, the product of intermingling the actual recollections of the kids, the mother, the grandmother, and the therapists. After 30 years of thinking about it, talking about it, writing and/or reading about it, we have the current narrative. I suspect that when it's compared with whatever contemporaneous evidence still exists, that there will be some important discrepancies. That's not due to any fault or failing of the mother. That's just what happens with human recollection over time and when one is dealing with this type of shared story.

I find it perfectly credible that the perp sexually abused his kids. I base that on what we have of the Johns Hopkins records and the testimony of the children from the second marriage. We don't have much to go on at this point, but if I was a betting man, I'd bet that the abuse of the kids from the first marriage resembled the abuse of the kids from the second marriage than the story they are all telling today. But to figure that out would require going over all of the therapist's notes and reviewing recordings of the therapy sessions


Okay. That's a reasonable response, and not unusual in any claim of historic sexual abuse. The defendants barrister in the historic case for which I was a juror, argued forcibly for the same thing. It amounts to a grand conspiracy on the part of the victims and their family members to get together and get their stories straight.

That was the best argument he had. It persuaded 2 jurors, but not the remaining 10.

If this gets to court. It will be interesting.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
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