Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mary wrote:Rep. The factual claims. Copy pasted from the suit.

"16. Shortly thereafter, JANE DOE 1 identified to MOTHER 1 that DOE 1 MALE DEFENDANT and DOE 2 FEMALE DEFENDANT sexually assaulted children at so called “touching parties.”

18. Shortly after the visit by the Apostle in late January or early February 1986, JANE DOE 1 identified Perpetrator, her own father, as participating with DOE 1 MALE DEFENDANT and DOE 2 FEMALE DEFENDANT in committing these heinous crimes against children. 19. After these disclosures, MOTHER 1 decided to take her children to Hawaii to visit their grandparents.

And from Marion Smith (p8)

"OnFebruary13,1986,Eileen was driving six year-old Tricia home from therapy when Tricia asked, “What’s the difference between what Janice and Dick Miles do to us and Daddy’s marriage lessons?”

Maybe I'm not understanding your point. Paragraph 16 says:

I don't see any ambiguity in the factual claim that Jane Doe 1 revealed the abuse of Def 1 and 2 to her mother first.


I'm not sure I understand your point. You originally referred to the declarations. Now you're referring to the complaint. The complaint does make it clear that the children began making allegations of abuse in therapy sessions with Snow.

15. In January of 1986, the mother of JANE DOE 1, JANE DOE 2, and JOHN DOE 1
(hereinafter “MOTHER 1”) heard from a neighbor that the neighbor’s children were being sexually
abused. As a precaution, she took JANE DOE 1 to the Intermountain Sexual Abuse Treatment
Center (ISAT) to engage in counseling sessions. At these sessions, JANE DOE 1 disclosed that
she had been abused by the 16-year-old babysitter (who was previously mentioned in the
paragraphs above) and two unknown teenage boys.
Shortly thereafter, MOTHER 1 spoke with her
local LDS Bishop and his First Counselor about the abuse. DOE 1 MALE DEFENDANT, who
was the Second Counselor of this LDS ward at the time, was notably absent from the meeting.
Initially, these men were very supportive of MOTHER 1’s efforts to investigate the abuse.


The complaint does allege that abuse by the Mileses was disclosed to the mother, but doesn't state whether that occurred inside or outside a therapy session or whether that abuse was disclosed to Snow before it was disclosed to the mother. Given the pattern in Snow's cases involved an ever increasing number of participants in each ring, and the fact that the children had been praised and rewarded for identifying the first three accused individuals, I don't think the fact that later disclosures were first made in or out of a therapy session with Snow is significant.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

"The complaint does allege that abuse by the Mileses was disclosed to the mother, but doesn't state whether that occurred inside or outside a therapy session or whether that abuse was disclosed to Snow before it was disclosed to the mother. Given the pattern in Snow's cases involved an ever increasing number of participants in each ring, and the fact that the children had been praised and rewarded for identifying the first three accused individuals, I don't think the fact that later disclosures were first made in or out of a therapy session with Snow is significant."


Okay. Got it. Thanks for your patience.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Res Ipsa
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mary wrote:
"The complaint does allege that abuse by the Mileses was disclosed to the mother, but doesn't state whether that occurred inside or outside a therapy session or whether that abuse was disclosed to Snow before it was disclosed to the mother. Given the pattern in Snow's cases involved an ever increasing number of participants in each ring, and the fact that the children had been praised and rewarded for identifying the first three accused individuals, I don't think the fact that later disclosures were first made in or out of a therapy session with Snow is significant."


Okay. Got it. Thanks for your patience.


You're welcome, thanks for yours. This is complicated and emotional stuff, and nerves get frayed.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

Here's the Mother's witness statement.

"2.In late January or early February of 1986, my children identified ......and....... as having sexually assaulted and raped them. This was shortly after identifying their teenage babysitter CW , two of her friends, and an older, "yellow haired man," as perpetrators. After naming these perpetratoi's, they disclosed that my ex-husband and his mother LS were also perpetrators of horrible crimes against them.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

You're welcome, thanks for yours. This is complicated and emotional stuff, and nerves get frayed.


True. I take your point, that the witness statements are ambiguous.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mary wrote:Here's the Mother's witness statement.

"2.In late January or early February of 1986, my children identified ......and....... as having sexually assaulted and raped them. This was shortly after identifying their teenage babysitter CW , two of her friends, and an older, "yellow haired man," as perpetrators. After naming these perpetratoi's, they disclosed that my ex-husband and his mother LS were also perpetrators of horrible crimes against them.


Right. She doesn't say to whom and under what circumstances these identifications were made.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

For interest. David Eccles Hardy, also a lawyer, gave permission to share this comment from MS on Facebook.

"I have first hand knowledge of this matter. In 1986 I received a letter by fax and hand-delivered it to then Apostle Russell M. Nelson as a favor for a Washington DC attorney about the strategy to keep this matter from being exposed. I provided a signed declaration about this matter to the victims’ attorney, Craig Vernon. I spent February through May of this year interviewing victims and parents and gathering documentary evidence, much of it in the U of U Special Collections section, all supporting the victims’ allegations. I have shared this information with two national news organizations and with the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. The children, from multiple families in the Bountiful Maple Hills Ward, weren’t “getting jerked around by both sides.” They had been horrifically sexually abused by those they trusted. Their stories were consistent and corroborative. They worked with different therapists, and an MD’s examination found scarring and evidence of serious sexual abuse in several of the victims (this evidence is in the lawsuit). The facts regarding the police “investigation” are disturbing; police gave the Miles & Bill Carstensen 24 hours advance notice that their houses would be searched - before summarily dropping the investigation upon finding no evidence. This abuse occurred. The victims, their parents and grandparents have been discredited and not believed for thirty years. Not again."
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

And more from David

"Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow. I have interviewed the parent and provided this video interview to the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. Barbara Snow has also told me that the involvement of the Miles was first disclosed to her by that parent. Snow did not conjure this up. She could not have. This was not “implanted memories” by the therapist. Convenient defense - but facts matter."
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_Meadowchik
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Meadowchik »

Mary wrote:And more from David

"Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow. I have interviewed the parent and provided this video interview to the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. Barbara Snow has also told me that the involvement of the Miles was first disclosed to her by that parent. Snow did not conjure this up. She could not have. This was not “implanted memories” by the therapist. Convenient defense - but facts matter."


Excuse me for my ignorance, but does anyone know the status of this current case?
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Mary wrote:And more from David

"Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow. I have interviewed the parent and provided this video interview to the victims’ attorney prior to the lawsuit being filed. Barbara Snow has also told me that the involvement of the Miles was first disclosed to her by that parent. Snow did not conjure this up. She could not have. This was not “implanted memories” by the therapist. Convenient defense - but facts matter."


Hmmm....the kids started meeting with Barbara Snow in January 1986, where, after hours of counseling, they said their babysitter had molested them. The therapy sessions continued, wherein Marion Snow says:

As our grandchildren’s therapy continued, the circle of perpetrators widened to include Dick and Brenda Miles.


Is this David guy saying that after beginning their counseling with Snow, the kids told their parents that the Miles were involved, but since they told the parents first, that somehow Snow's counseling shouldn't be considered a factor? If that's the argument, I'm not sure I buy that.
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