Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

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_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Meadowchik wrote:
Yet I am seeing statements that contradict that timeline.

from David Eccles Hardy from previous page:


I'm not sure Eccles is contradicting anything.

According to his narrative, he insists "Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow."

Some people are taking that to mean that the children claimed abuse before they met with Snow. But that obviously isn't the case.

He seems to be saying that after the children had begun counseling with Snow (and the initial accusations against the babysitter and other teenagers had been made), at some point a child or children made a claim to a parent that the Miles were involved. The fact that this claim was made outside of a counseling session seems to be important to some people. I'm not sure why. We don't even know the circumstances or the exact wording that was used in the conversation in which the accusation came about.

As I've said elsewhere, once the kids had hours of counseling with Snow (and had been thrown parties for making accusations against other people!), all bets are off. Sorry.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Meadowchik »

cinepro wrote:
Meadowchik wrote:
Yet I am seeing statements that contradict that timeline.

from David Eccles Hardy from previous page:


I'm not sure Eccles is contradicting anything.

According to his narrative, he insists "Several of the children first told a parent about being molested by the Miles - not Barbara Snow. That parent informed Snow."

Some people are taking that to mean that the children claimed abuse before they met with Snow. But that obviously isn't the case.

He seems to be saying that after the children had begun counseling with Snow (and the initial accusations against the babysitter and other teenagers had been made), at some point a child or children made a claim to a parent that the Miles were involved. The fact that this claim was made outside of a counseling session seems to be important to some people. I'm not sure why. We don't even know the circumstances or the exact wording that was used in the conversation in which the accusation came about.

As I've said elsewhere, once the kids had hours of counseling with Snow (and had been thrown parties for making accusations against other people!), all bets are off. Sorry.


Here's to hoping the judge will look at the evidence and not bet.
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Meadowchik wrote:Going over the Marion Smith account again, the timeline begins with her lesson she gave at church, upon request, about the symptoms of sexual abuse. Children would come forward after that, then were referred to therapists including Snow. According to Smith's account, I might need to adjust what I said, in that the concerns about sexual abuse were already raised before the children spoke to Snow. If I go by the grandmother, it was Eileen the babysitter who had already been accused by a victim in the Brett Bullock case, and being the babysitter of her grandchildren, the father insisted Snow interview them. The first time revealed no abuse. Then Snow was informed of the accusations against Eileen, and it was then that the children are said to have disclosed abuse.



No. Just no.

The timeline begins in the summer of 1985, when Sheila Bowers of Lehi, Utah (about 30 miles south of SLC) first contacted ISAT (the organization the Marion Smith was director of) and Dr. Snow with concerns about her three children. In counseling with Dr. Snow, the children made accusations against a babysitter in their ward (Lehi Eighth Ward). This leads to Dr. Snow discovering a sex ring in that ward involving the Bishop and his wife (based solely on the accusations of children made during therapy; no evidence is ever found).

Upon further investigation, Alan Hadfield (another member of the ward and a supporter of Dr. Snow and someone who urged an investigation) is also accused of molestation and is eventually imprisoned. (Read that sentence a few times and see if something doesn't make sense.) By 1987, Dr. Snow had accused 40 adults in Lehi of molestation and being members of a secret Satanic cult. No evidence is ever found; Hadfield was convicted based solely on the claims of the children and Snow's testimony as an "expert witness."

Against that backdrop, Marion Smith, living in Bountiful, Utah (about 10 miles north of SLC) is asked to give a lesson to her ward Relief Society on the "symptoms and treatment of child sex abuse." A woman in the ward expresses concern about her children, and Smith recommends she take her daughter to the ISAT, where they are interviewed and their accusations lead to charges of abuse against their local teenage babysitters. Eventually, Brett Bullock, a local architect then embroiled in a custody dispute with his ex-wife, is accused after she took their child to Dr. Snow.

From there, the accusations spread throughout the area. Marion Smith says "Ten children made allegations of abuse against adolescent baby tenders of both genders and against several men in the ward." Bullock is sent to prison.

Marion Smith is convinced that all the children who were "involved" with the babysitters in Bountiful need therapy, and says as much to her Bishop. He doesn't take action until his own son was named as a victim (presumably by another kid). The Bishop recommends 15 families take their kids to therapists. They do, and during their first therapy visit, the kids say they weren't abused, and most parents don't continue the visits.

In January of 1986, a babysitter named "Janice" that was used by Marion Smith's daughters (one of whom is married to Bill Carstensen) is implicated in the Bullock case.

Upon finding out that one of their babysitters might be a child molester, Bill Carstensen (who, keep in mind, is now believed to have been molesting his kids and been a part of the sex ring with that same babysitter) "insisted his children be interviewed and made an appointment at ISAT with Dr. Barbara Snow." Those are Marion's words, and she never explains why a child molester and member of a secret sex ring would insist his kids get interviewed by a therapist who had already discovered a member of his sex ring!

The kids go to Barbara Snow and she finds "no problems" with them, and says "they seem fine." But then Barbara learns they had the same babysitter that had been accused in the Bullock case, so she re-interviews the kids for two hours, at which point the eight year old starts talking about how the babysitter "puts crayons up us."

Many appointments follow, as well as a party to reward the kids for making accusations. The circle of accused widens, until finally the Miles are accused, and then Bill Carstensen.

Marion Smith's Account

A Rumor of Devils: Allegations of Satanic Child Abuse and Mormonism, 1985-1994
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

If I am understanding cinepro correctly, he feels, and I agree, that the timeline clearly indicates full and irreparably intertwined involvement of this case with the fully discredited therapeutic movements.
meadowchik wrote:Then the heavy political influence of the church at that time, apostle Nelson's involvement with his daughter Brenda Miles after the accusations were made, the lack of institutional caution of the church with the second set of children in the father's second marriage, and the absence of an excommunication for the father at the time all add another dimension to the case. This story seems to be one where church relationships enabled predatory grooming, assault and cover-up, so much so that the abuse was repeated (at least in the father's case) with another set of children.
[bolding added.]
I disagree that the church was more than peripherally involved. The abuse from the father seems well established, in my opinion, but the rest comes from Snow's discredited therapeutic process in the context of a nationwide ritual abuse scare.

Additionally, I think Marion Smith, who If I recall correctly was Snow's boss at the time, acted in an incredibly irresponsible and unprofesional manner. The more I read, the more shocked I am at her behavior this entire period.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_cinepro
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _cinepro »

Lemmie wrote:I disagree that the church was more than peripherally involved. The abuse from the father seems well established, in my opinion, but the rest comes from Snow's discredited therapeutic process in the context of a nationwide ritual abuse scare.


The crazy thing is that when the charges against the Miles were recently brought up on the Mormon Stories Facebook group, almost everyone was like "I believe the victims!" and "There's no good reason not to believe!" and "Why would they lie?!"

The Mormons Stories group may be many things, but a bastion of sober and rational thought it is not.

One guy tried to explain the context for why, maybe, it might not be good to accept the claims at face value, but they just called him an apologist for the Church.

This is the weirdest post:

I live in the Mueller Park Stake boundaries and I know Brenda Miles. A few of her kids were friends with my kids and we scrapbooked together back in the day. At first I absolutely thought the allegations were not true because of their reputations, their kids, where they live, etc. but the more I think about it that is exactly what most people think, simply because of their social standing. I ask myself, what motivation do these kids have to falsely accuse the Miles’? Obviously the Miles’ have every reason to deny. I have changed my mind and definitely think that there needs to be further investigation. I side with the victims. Just one more reason that having no division between church and state is an atrocity. I hope the truth can come out and the predators are brought to justice but I hate to say I am doubtful. Particularly now that Rusty is the president of the church formerly known as Mormon.


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_Meadowchik
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Meadowchik »

cinepro wrote:

No. Just no.



Apart from me using Eileen instead of Janice, (I have a weird way of remembering names) what was inaccurate about what I said? I was speaking solely to Marion Smith's account.
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Meadowchik »

Lemmie wrote:If I am understanding cinepro correctly, he feels, and I agree, that the timeline clearly indicates full and irreparably intertwined involvement of this case with the fully discredited therapeutic movements.


Edited to add: Strikeout is mine. I agree with the remaining portion.

As for the original, I wouldn't be that hasty. In my opinion, there is potential for a careful untangling of pertinent facts that might enable a clearer picture of what transpired, if such a careful examination is allowed in a court of law.

Lemmie wrote:I disagree that the church was more than peripherally involved. The abuse from the father seems well established, in my opinion, but the rest comes from Snow's discredited therapeutic process in the context of a nationwide ritual abuse scare.


Police and church failed victims, in my opinion, the church having complete power to prevent a second set of victims by following it's own ostensible rules but not doing it because it did not follow them is not peripheral.

Lemmie wrote:Additionally, I think Marion Smith, who If I recall correctly was Snow's boss at the time, acted in an incredibly irresponsible and unprofesional manner. The more I read, the more shocked I am at her behavior this entire period.


I agree that therapists did not practice in accordance with modern professional standards. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that Snow and others were applying faith-culture approaches to truth-finding to their professional practice. It is tragic, to say the least.
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_Meadowchik
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Meadowchik »

cinepro wrote:
Lemmie wrote:I disagree that the church was more than peripherally involved. The abuse from the father seems well established, in my opinion, but the rest comes from Snow's discredited therapeutic process in the context of a nationwide ritual abuse scare.


The crazy thing is that when the charges against the Miles were recently brought up on the Mormon Stories Facebook group, almost everyone was like "I believe the victims!" and "There's no good reason not to believe!" and "Why would they lie?!"

The Mormons Stories group may be many things, but a bastion of sober and rational thought it is not.

One guy tried to explain the context for why, maybe, it might not be good to accept the claims at face value, but they just called him an apologist for the Church.

This is the weirdest post:

I live in the Mueller Park Stake boundaries and I know Brenda Miles. A few of her kids were friends with my kids and we scrapbooked together back in the day. At first I absolutely thought the allegations were not true because of their reputations, their kids, where they live, etc. but the more I think about it that is exactly what most people think, simply because of their social standing. I ask myself, what motivation do these kids have to falsely accuse the Miles’? Obviously the Miles’ have every reason to deny. I have changed my mind and definitely think that there needs to be further investigation. I side with the victims. Just one more reason that having no division between church and state is an atrocity. I hope the truth can come out and the predators are brought to justice but I hate to say I am doubtful. Particularly now that Rusty is the president of the church formerly known as Mormon.


Image


I read the entire thread as well, but can't find it there anymore. I had a different view, and it seems to me that the "one guy" was ignoring David's comments and was talking past others who were trying to distinguish between ritual abuse and the Satanic stuff.

That comment from the neighbor appears to be the evolution of someone who was once predisposed to trust neighbors and church members and claims of innocence over accusations. That there are victims is convincing, exactly how far the accusations go is the question, so I don't see her comment as so weird. Remember that a ton of people at MS are just coming out of the mindset of a culture prone to trusting too much. Acknowledging that good-appearing people might be doing very bad things is revolutionary and even healthy. She didn't say she would skip the need for evidence before accepting a guilty conviction.
_Mary
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Mary »

I wouldn't be that hasty. In my opinion, there is potential for a careful untangling of pertinent facts that might enable a clearer picture of what transpired, if such a careful examination is allowed in a court of law.


Exactly. Such a refreshing comment. Thankyou.
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_Lemmie
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Re: Nelsons daughter and son-in-law accused of sex abuse

Post by _Lemmie »

Meadowchik wrote:
Lemmie, as edited by meadowchik who added the strikeouts, wrote:If I am understanding cinepro correctly, he feels, and I agree, that the timeline clearly indicates full and irreparably intertwined involvement of this case with the fully discredited therapeutic movements.

I don't mind if you want to adjust my quote to make your point, but please then indicate that YOU are the author of the strike-outs, not me. I specifically used "full and irreparably" because I don't think there is a way to untangle the aspects.

meadowchik wrote:I wouldn't be that hasty. In my opinion, there is potential for a careful untangling of pertinent facts that might enable a clearer picture of what transpired, if such a careful examination is allowed in a court of law.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
meadowchik wrote:
Lemmie wrote:I disagree that the church was more than peripherally involved. The abuse from the father seems well established, in my opinion, but the rest comes from Snow's discredited therapeutic process in the context of a nationwide ritual abuse scare.


Police and church failed victims, in my opinion, the church having complete power to prevent a second set of victims by following it's own ostensible rules but not doing it because it did not follow them is not peripheral.

I see your point about the second set of victims. I thought you were just referring to this lawsuit, but as far as limiting the damage to the second set of children, yes, I agree the LDS church could have taken a role in trying to avoid that.
meadowchik wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Additionally, I think Marion Smith, who If I recall correctly was Snow's boss at the time, acted in an incredibly irresponsible and unprofesional manner. The more I read, the more shocked I am at her behavior this entire period.


I agree that therapists did not practice in accordance with modern professional standards. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that Snow and others were applying faith-culture approaches to truth-finding to their professional practice. It is tragic, to say the least.
Pretty extreme even within a faith-culture, but yes, I agree with you on the impact.
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