Divorce Number 3 Turning Nasty For Rudy Giuliani

[_honorentheos]

It's because he extended an olive branch to Ajax over the apparent love his daughter has for him, Chap. Clearly. And it read like you were negating that. Cam is fairly obviously asking you to walk back from implicating Ajax with your comment. Suggesting it was because Cam is insecure? Pretty far off the mark as well.

Honor,

Thank you for posting your interpretation above of Chap's earlier comment. As mentioned before, I certainly count you among the more fair minded and empathetic posters here on MDB.

In the interest of balance, however, I did not take Chap's comment in question in the way you suggested. In fact, I was at a loss to understand Doc Cam's response to Chap until I read your possible interpretation above.

I sincerely doubt that Chap intended his comment to be taken as you suggested, or as Doc Cam apparently interpreted it. Nothing from Chap that I have read on this board has come across as mean spirited or passive aggressive, in any way, as far as I can see.

As in your case, Chap is one of the contributors whose posts I always try to read when I see his screen name pop up on the content screen.

Perhaps he should be cut a bit of slack on this one.

Hi DrW,

I originally was going to chalk up the back-and-forth between Chap and Cam to a mix of misunderstanding and the nature of message boards. We seem to find a way to argue about anything. That was, until the comment Chap made right above mine where he essentially attributed Cam's reaction to Chap's comment hitting a bit close to home which set him off. While noting that wasn't his intention, due to his not having knowledge of who Cam is in real life, it is certainly one of the most uncharitable explanations one could reach for.

But here's the thing. I'm not guessing as to Cam's motivation. Cam told us, rather clearly I thought, why he replied to Chap. It's in this post:
viewtopic.php?p=1157757#p1157757

Yes, certainly, says the passive-aggressive pillow who swoops into a nice moment to make some sort of weird out-of-left-field comment and then is too cowardly to explain himself.

Seems pretty straight-forward at this point. And I tend to sympathize with Cam in this regard. For all the distaste I have for Ajax's political views and racism, if we can't share a common respect for one another as parents and acknowledge the parental bond of genuine affection there as something that unites us as human beings, we're doing things wrong.

I don't know Chap's heart. I do know he missed what Cam said and then made a seriously distasteful stab at an explanation that made it worse.

[_Jersey Girl]

Chap,

I can think of alternative explanations for what took place here and I admit that this is the part of a thread that I dislike and find tedious because the thread begins to turn back on itself and the topic is completely lost in the process.

In my view, you aren't reading and perceiving the exchanges accurately. I'll tell you why and what I see, how I interpret it myself. Let's get Cam out of the way first.

In your replies you have used the following to describe him:


Serious anger issues here? Something odd, anyway.
ignition of DrC's personal fuse
subsequent melt-down

There you are implying that a career soldier whose livelihood, life and life of his counterparts depended on his ability to maintain self control, self discipline, and focus. I don't see anywhere in his posts an expression or indication of anger, personal fuse or melt down. I can't imagine a man who has seen life threatening conflict becoming triggered over a couple of exchanges on a message board. Irritated, sure. Dismissive, sure.

In any case, those are ad homs on your part. Ad homs that, in my opinion, fell short.

What I see is a guy who saw your reply to ajax18 interpreting it as a possible dig at ajax18 and he sought to question you further for clarification. You basically dismissed his inquiry by accusing him of possible trolling (ad hom). When what he wanted was an answer. Then you slipped in additional ad homs as you continued with him.

So he blew you off.

Here, you say:

On reflection, I think I can see why he got so upset: I think he took my comment as a suggestion that his own daughter would be ill-advised to use him as a model in looking for a partner, which was not my intention at all (I don't have any personal knowledge of him to enable me to decide such a question one way or another). That's the only reason I can think of for the subsequent melt-down.


Maybe, if Cam gets good and bored today, he will return here and explain further his responses to you. I think you are wrong in your assessment. I think he saw a sincere expression of love and appreciation by a father (ajax18) and saw your comment to him (ajax18) as a possible dig intended to undermine that expression. Cam attempted to question you further and you essentially dismissed his inquiry, lacing your comments with ad hom remarks. It makes it look like you are trying to deflect dialogue with him.

It's possible that you meant no insult to ajax18. However, if you did, you would be wrong to do so. In spite of some of the political views he has been linked to elsewhere that some of us find objectionable, ajax18 posts on this board are almost always respectful and yet, he is having to pay over and over and over again by being confronted with his posts elsewhere. He continues to be stereotyped on this board by presumably open minded people.

He is a husband to one, father of two. He expresses disappointment in his marriage and that's perfectly normal and acceptable. It's not a sign of weakness on his part, it is what it is. Anyone who has been married for very long has highs and lows, peaks and valleys. He loves his children, he was so moved by and appreciative of his daughter's love for him and Cam responded to that as a man and father himself.

It's almost as if you couldn't respond to ajax18's genuine and heart warming comments about his child, so you paved the way for a little dig at him. You might not have intended that at all. It's just one possible interpretation.

Regarding girls looking for someone that is like their father. Well, you can advise until you're blue in the keyboard but it's very true that people(unintentionall/intentionally) do seem to gravitate to that which is familiar to them. Looks, temperament, lifestyle, religion, all of it. Some people are drawn to the polar opposite of their parents.

In any case, ajax18's comments were that of a father who so loves his children. His comments ideally should have been left to stand without challenge in any way. There are times when we might do better to stand down and simply appreciate the sincere expression of others or acknowledge them for what they are.

I don't know about anyone else around here, but I've engaged in conflict with perhaps every single poster on this thread at one time or another. Sometimes pretty insulting torrential down pours of profanity laced conflict! I've smarted off at more posters here than I can count and they to me.

But let one of them put up a sincere and heartfelt expression of love, appreciation, grief, fear, or need and I instantly put down my arsenal of word weaponry and instead I rush to them to affirm them because at that point, battle is completely off the table, replaced with support and it doesn't matter what we said to each other two posts ago, two days ago, two weeks ago or two years ago.

I think that ajax18's post deserved recognition and affirmation for the simplicity of love that it expressed. I think that Cam saw it as a moment for affirmation and responded in that manner, and you basically killed the vibe.

No one is going to die from the exchanges that took place here. Surely, we all move on. I don't like being picked apart any more than you do here. Take what is useful to you from all of this feedback you're getting and do with it what you will.

[/rambling]

[_Lemmie]

Really, Jersey girl? You don't remember [deleted]. I was sickened by the experience.

There you are implying that a career soldier whose livelihood, life and life of his counterparts depended on his ability to maintain self control, self discipline, and focus. I don't see anywhere in his posts an expression or indication of anger, personal fuse or melt down. I can't imagine a man who has seen life threatening conflict becoming triggered over a couple of exchanges on a message board.

Your sentiment is lovely, but wrong in this case. Cameron has a posting history full of vicious personal attacks. Whatever self control, self discipline and focus you think he has in real life because he was in the military is not in evidence at all in his overall posting style. Chap, on the other hand, is consistent, thoughtful, and has never engaged in the type of attacks Cameron frequently resorts to. If you feel the need to lecture someone, take a look at cameron's posts. l wish I had been more cognizant of Cameron's issues sooner, I would have been much more careful about [deleted].

I don't blame Chap at all for taking a defensive position with a poster who is so unstable.

[_Jersey Girl]

I didn't reply to this at first because things went south and fast. Here you go, Dad. :-)

My three year old girl just came in, grabbed my head in her little hands and gave me a kiss. Where else do you find that kind of love? No matter how bad the marriage can be, the truth is I wouldn't have her if I hadn't take the plunge and entered into it.

You can't find it anywhere else. One of the most glorious things about the preschool years is being with small human beings who have no filter. They have one foot in the real world and one in fantasy, and you get to be part of that. In your family, you get to be the hero and first love of your daughter. :-) All that matters to young children is love and later, having a friend.

Three decades of experiences tells me that the best way to help young children learn to write is to give them opportunities to communicate through writing. Forget the rote alphabet learning, it's meaningless and young children seek meaning and ways to order the world. Who do they want to communicate with and what do they want to say? From where do they gain their first sense of order? What holds meaning to them? What are their motivations?

Watch what I show you.

The very first words that a child learns to write and asks for help to learn to write are as follows and in order.

1. Their own name.
2. Mom, Dad
3. Love

After that comes the family pet names and if they are so moved, the names of siblings ;-), then grandparents.

They want to know how to write their name because "I" (their name) marks the very beginning of their impact on the world. I made this, I painted this, I did this...I am here and I matter!

The basis for what motivates them, where they get their first sense of order, their self image and all that it is connected to, can be seen in the words they want to learn how to write and what they want to write about. What's most important to them?

Mom, Dad, and Love.

Your daughter's very foundation, her first ordering influence from which she will develop the confidence to go out and make her impact on the world is:

Mom, Dad, and Love.

Her self image, how she defines herself, is directly connected to the world that is:

Me, Mom, Dad and Love.

She draws meaning from and is motivated by:

Mom, Dad, and Love.

She shows you that when she takes your head in her small hands and kisses your face. She has no filter telling her not to act on what is most important in her life. She doesn't know how to put conditions on her relationships. A child age 3 is often ruled by impulse.

Her impulse is to love you.

And some day, she is going to put that in writing and sign her name to it. Because she will know she has impact, that she matters, what she thinks, feels and has to say matters, writing matters, and you matter to her.

Drink that in.
:-)

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Lemmie is just butthurt because [deleted].

She's been milking that one for months. Must be an awesome view from up on that cross.

What. Evah.

- Doc "[deleted]" NC4Me

[_Chap]

Just to be clear: I visit this board in the midst of doing a lot of other kinds of communicating, because, on the whole, I find it interesting, fun and very different from the rest of my life.

I am grateful to those who take the trouble to understand my point of view, but I am willing to take the rough with the smooth. After all, it's not me, it's just an anonymous avatar.

Basically:



Nope.

("bovvered" = "bothered, concerned" in the speech of the lower Thames estuary.)

[_Gunnar]

My three year old girl just came in, grabbed my head in her little hands and gave me a kiss. Where else do you find that kind of love?

Well, that's why men have families. We're profoundly and deeply moved by love. And I'm glad you're experiencing it. If there's one thing I miss more often than not, it's the relationship I had with my daughters when they were just little kiddos. Don't get me wrong, we have a very solid rapport now, but there's just this magical period when they're 3-10 years where it's idyllic. I miss it. :)

Glad you have that.

- Doc

I know exactly what you mean! My most cherished memories are of times my little kids were just learning to walk and talk. There is nothing more precious and endearing than the love and trust of a small child. One particularly fond memory was when my first child was about 18 to 20 months old. My wife was gone to some meeting and my daughter was contentedly sitting on my lap and eating a cookie while I read stories to her. She suddenly noticed that her poor old daddy didn't have a cookie, so she took the last of her cookie that she had just finished stuffing into her mouth back out of her own mouth and stuffed it into mine. What better way of telling her daddy "I love you!" could there be than that?

[_Jersey Girl]

My three year old girl just came in, grabbed my head in her little hands and gave me a kiss. Where else do you find that kind of love?

Well, that's why men have families. We're profoundly and deeply moved by love. And I'm glad you're experiencing it. If there's one thing I miss more often than not, it's the relationship I had with my daughters when they were just little kiddos. Don't get me wrong, we have a very solid rapport now, but there's just this magical period when they're 3-10 years where it's idyllic. I miss it. :)

Glad you have that.

- Doc

I know exactly what you mean! My most cherished memories are of times my little kids were just learning to walk and talk. There is nothing more precious and endearing than the love and trust of a small child. One particularly fond memory was when my first child was about 18 to 20 months old. My wife was gone to some meeting and my daughter was contentedly sitting on my lap and eating a cookie while I read stories to her. She suddenly noticed that her poor old daddy didn't have a cookie, so she took the last of her cookie that she had just finished stuffing into her mouth back out of her own mouth and stuffed it into mine. What better way of telling her daddy "I love you!" could there be than that?

I love all of these expressions of your side of the relationship. Love them.

[_Jersey Girl]

You expect a reply here. Okay fine. Do it or die from it, I guess.

Really, Jersey girl? You don't remember [deleted]. I was sickened by the experience.

There you are implying that a career soldier whose livelihood, life and life of his counterparts depended on his ability to maintain self control, self discipline, and focus. I don't see anywhere in his posts an expression or indication of anger, personal fuse or melt down. I can't imagine a man who has seen life threatening conflict becoming triggered over a couple of exchanges on a message board.

Your sentiment is lovely, but wrong in this case. Cameron has a posting history full of vicious personal attacks. Whatever self control, self discipline and focus you think he has in real life because he was in the military is not in evidence at all in his overall posting style. Chap, on the other hand, is consistent, thoughtful, and has never engaged in the type of attacks Cameron frequently resorts to. If you feel the need to lecture someone, take a look at cameron's posts. l wish I had been more cognizant of Cameron's issues sooner, I would have been much more careful about [deleted].

I don't blame Chap at all for taking a defensive position with a poster who is so unstable.

I don't see my comments to Chap as lecture.
I don't think that Chap received them as lecture.
I don't see Cam as unstable.
I don't know why Cam took the approach that he did with you.

[_ajax18]

And some day, she is going to put that in writing and sign her name to it. Because she will know she has impact, that she matters, what she thinks, feels and has to say matters, writing matters, and you matter to her.

Thanks Jersey Girl