Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

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_Shulem
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:This board exhibits some of those faults and problems on a daily basis, but, hey, we’re the good guys, right?


Well, I think most everyone here wants the truth to be told. It would be nice if Mormons would tell prospective candidates everything about their church prior to having them join and committing 10% of their income along with their complete devotion to the organization. The problem is the top leadership has been hiding things and covering things up for generations. This needs to change. Change can require drastic action on part of those who insist change take place. The leaders of the church don't want change. They want the status quo and members to pray, pay, and obey -- covering up church history to prevent members from leaving and woo more nonmembers into joining their wonderful organization.
_I have a question
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _I have a question »

Kishkumen wrote:IThe problem is not that there is Mormonism, or religion; the problem is a lack of humility, sympathy, tolerance, and restraint.

This board exhibits some of those faults and problems on a daily basis, but, hey, we’re the good guys, right?


I'm pretty sure the problem relevant to this board is that there is indeed Mormonism.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Shulem wrote:
Craig Paxton wrote:This, in my opinion, undermines his integrety and plays into the churches worldview that we apostates have no integerety and that makes me sad.


Let the church think whatever it wants about apostates: Zero integrity, half integrity, full integrity -- whatever!

As far as the church is concerned, apostates are the worst people on earth, period. You're going to burn in hell, Craig Paxton -- you broke your covenants, refuse to keep the commandments, and have mocked the Lord and his church. You're toast, dude. You have ZERO integrity!

:biggrin:


LOL...Ha Ha F*** the church...its all made up ____ anyway. When you're dead you're dead. Teachings of an after life is jsut made up ____ anyway made up to give religion powr over you in THIS life...the Only life that actually exsists.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Mormon Think
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Mormon Think »

I read the transcript. I thought Bill did a good job of explaining his problems with the church and discussing many of the big issues. It was clear though that the SP and other men were not going to even attempt to explain any of the historical problems of the church or justify Joseph's polyandry or lying from apostles, Book of Abraham facsimiles or anything else. It was a foregone conclusion from the start. Did you make these posts Bro Reel? If so, you are guilty of apostasy. Kudos to Bill for educating them a little anyway.

The brethren did seem very hung up on Bill's calling of apostles liars. I wonder if it would've made any difference at all if Bill merely identified specific instances of lying by the church leaders without labeling them liars (like everything they say is a lie)? Of course the excommunication would have still happen but maybe a little different dialogue.

I could have guessed that the High Councilman would have said No, I didn't teach my kids about Santa to attempt to shut down Bill's obvious next argument. That may or may not be true but I agree with Bill that some of the brethren there very likely taught their kids about Santa at least when they were very young (as I did with my kids). I even was a Santa apologist coming up with crazy explanations when my kids asked me things like how can he get to every house in one night (told them he used something to stop time or some such nonsense). Although apologists like to dismiss the Santa Analogy, it is very appropriate that kids believe in all their heart that Santa is real, especially because the people that told them that were the people that they trust the most - their parents who would never lie to them. Similarly members also believe with all their heart that Mormonism is true and it is apparent that at least some of the leaders lied about certain aspects of the church to make it seem more believable.
_Meadowchik
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Meadowchik »

Kishkumen wrote:I wish Bill and his family the best. Hopefully they continue to find joy in their new life’s journey.

Bill’s experience is evidence of a crisis in Mormonism today. I agree with him when he says it is a truth crisis, but I do not agree with his interpretation of the nature of the truth crisis. Mormonism was born in the midst of a collision between modernity and what came before. The phenomenon of religion is much older than modernity, and the concept of truth therein is not necessarily the one Bill has adopted. That is no one’s fault, really; it’s simply the way of things. The world changes, and growing pains are pains indeed.

Needless to say I think Bill’s assumptions about what is best for everyone are not necessarily correct. There are other people out there who are happy in Mormonism. There are those who are uncomfortable but respond to that discomfort differently than Bill has. Mormonism will continue to change, albeit not at a pace Bill was ready to be patient for. That’s fine. No one is obliged to be patient. What I regret about Bill’s framing of all of this is his tunnel vision about what is right and true. He finds validation in his ability to convert others to his perspective. I am sure Joseph Smith felt the same way.

I am not saying that Bill is a prophet, or a minister. Bill is an influencer, and the fact that he is good at influencing is not evidence that he is, in some ultimate sense, right. I agree with a lot of Bill’s criticisms, but I don’t see his choices as inevitable, or as the only authentic way of responding to this situation. Bill has done what he feels is right for him, and his family, presumably feeling the same way, has followed suit.

Other honorable, intelligent lovers of truth stay in Mormonism. I know that is difficult for some to conceive of, let alone respect, but it is true. And, until we are able to disagree agreeably and, moreover, see the good in others following their own paths, while not being overconfident of our own righteousness and rightness, we remain part of the problem. The problem is not that there is Mormonism, or religion; the problem is a lack of humility, sympathy, tolerance, and restraint.

This board exhibits some of those faults and problems on a daily basis, but, hey, we’re the good guys, right?


I think that humanity moves forward through a variety of innovations, and every situation does not merit the same type of conversation. Yes, I'd say we all need to know how to reason together, to empathize but, even better, to accept that we do not and even cannot understand another completely. That, after basic politeness and respect, are a foundation. But sometimes, morality will require hard measures. Usually, in my opinion, this is the case with, first, continued cruetly and violence from an individual, or, second, in response to systemic cruelty and injustice.

((Corporations are not people))
_Craig Paxton
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Craig Paxton »

Viriatu wrote:Hahahhaha. I haven’t posted here in quite a while. I see my post was deleted. So much for “open discussion.” Mormon Discussions is r/exmormon 2.0 (0.1?). God speed, brethren. You’ll need it.



haha...ooo I'm so scared. Dude its all made up. No one deleted your post. We don't do that here. Post away and prepare yourself to have to actually defend your point of view. Oh I'm sorry you probably got us confused with MD&D...yes they do delete, block and remove posts all the time and if you don't conform and bend to their point of view they'll actually ban you from their board. I should know I've been banned 3 times and have finally given up trying to post there. But that's them not us.
"...The official doctrine of the LDS Church is a Global Flood" - BCSpace

"...What many people call sin is not sin." - Joseph Smith

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away" - Phillip K. Dick

“The meaning of life is that it ends" - Franz Kafka
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

From the other thread, I forget momentarily which one, the linked Constructing Religion in the Digital Age: The Internet and Modern Mormon Identities (font emphasis mine):

There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve... The discursive strategy of distinguishing between culture and doctrine relies on the Mormon emphasis on continuing revelation...

Who defines what it means to be Mormon, and draws lines to determine who is in and who is out of the bounds of the legitimate community? Answering that question requires starting at the top: in this theologically and pragmatically top-down organization with clearly demarcated hierarchy, Mormon leaders are considered divinely installed and their words are revered as messages from on high...

This paradox makes it difficult to delineate where "structure" (e.g., constraint) ends and "agency" (or choice) begins in LDS identity construction: when are leaders offering normalizing discourse? When are Mormons choosing? While General Authorities, especially the First Presidency, are said to be called to their authoritative positions by God himself, the Church is quick to emphasize to the non-Mormon media that not everything an Authority says is said with authority, illustrated in this 2007 statement from the online LDS Newsroom:

Blah blah blah BS by President Newsroom, 2007


... For many faithful members who revere their leaders, the question of what counts as doctrine and what is mere opinion is of little practical concern. Members are taught from an early age that their Church is uniquely led directly by God through its leaders. Many members express their ultimate faith in anything said by someone in leadership (even down to their bishop, who serves on a volunteer, rotating basis with no ecclesiastical training but who is believed to have been called to his position by God). In fact, the degree to which members accept all words of General Authorities as divinely inspired and binding is a generally accurate way to measure LDS orthodoxy and conformity to Mormon institutional norms. In particular, faithful members generally receive public addresses and publications from General Authorities as having the weight of authority expected from someone inspired of God; when pressed, they express a reliance on affective evidence to decide whether these messages are "right" or "true."

One missionary explained to me, "When the prophet speaks, I feel warm and happy. And I know what he is saying is true." This common affective response stems from not only the actual words of the Authority, but from a deep, personal conviction that each Authority is divinely installed. It was not uncommon in my interviews and observations for faithful Mormons to become visibly emotional or even weep as they bore their testimony of the divine inspiration of General Authorities and complete confidence in their words, especially the prophet. The tendency for orthodox Mormons to accept leaders' messages on their face is often mocked and used by those on the outside and even by internal critics as a way of denigrating Mormons as "sheep" who blindly follow their shepherds. A rather obscure line from the Church's official periodical in 1945, Improvement Era, is often invoked -- both by critics mocking what they see as the blind faith of members, and occasionally by zealous members themselves-- as an overly simplistic and dismissive explanation for this confidence in leadership: "When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done" (Palmer 1945: 354).


The only thing 'true' in the Mormon church is its hierarchy and obedience to it forthwith.

That's it. And that's what these excommunications intend to uphold. For thinking members, they'll figure out that any dissent will be perceived as a threat to the hierarchy's authority and this its legitimacy.

This will never be tolerated by tyrants.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Sanctorian
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Sanctorian »

I listened to the entire thing. It brought up all the mixed feelings I had trying to explain these very issues with my local leaders. It’s apparent there is no place in the church for a non literal belief unless you keep quiet. The minute you open your mouth, they kick or push you out.

I’m glad more and more of these events are being recorded. When someone says “that’s not how the church works” we have a record that is in fact how the church works.
I'm a Ziontologist. I self identify as such.
_Shulem
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Shulem »

You can get out of my church, Bill Reel, I want no such men in it. You're out and take your apostate family with you.

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_Shulem
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Re: Audio of Bill Reel's Disciplinary Council

Post by _Shulem »

You're next, consiglieri.

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