No Trump defenders left ...?

[Guest]

So. Just to be clear, and what I'm attempting to underscore with my interaction with Markk and my posting history about Trump's relationship with the Russians is that he's typical of his ignorance and, in fact, glories in it.

First up. Markk just straight up lied about not being a Trump supporter. He immediately contradicted himself when losing track of his own lie:

I am not really a Trump supporter...

... have stated many times why I voted for him, and why I want him to succeed.

Secondly, he only clicked on one link from my post where I outlined his laziness castigating him for not actually reading anything. How do I know this? He said this:

In Your words...Your "smocking gun" I assume a typo of "smoking."

He's so damned retarded that he didn't understand it was actually President Trump that used "smocking" in a tweet and he was rightly excoriated throughout social media for it. It's somehow poetic that Markk, who routinely misspells words, misspelled Butina's name repeatedly, and now thought I was a dummy for using 'smocking' didn't know it was actually a quote hence my use of the single quotation meant for emphasis.

Whatever the case may be, Markk forges ahead, not understanding the 'narrative' in which he finds himself regarding my posting about Trump. If, as I've repeatedly asked him to do, he were to go back and get smart on my posting about Trump then he'd know what my primary angle on the Trump family and their business relationship with the Russian mobocracy is. He'd know exactly what I'm talking about had he taken a moment read this clue I posted for him:

viewtopic.php?p=1162578#p1162578

Failing to read that clue he forged ahead anyway thinking he has some neat parlor trick of moving Trump away from collusion, not understanding in the least that my take on collusion is far greater and far longer than just the 2016 election. It's an expansive history where the Russians have managed to 'kompromat' Trump through their historical relationship, and yes, find ways to funnel him campaign money, use our social media against us, launder money through him and to him, and then use him to get geopolitical concessions.

This was and is plain as day.

So. When I offered Butina as a jumping off point Markk got a little chub in his Dickies thinking I can't prove any collusion through or on behalf of Butina.

Welp. I'm going to attempt to use the Socratic method on Markk. I'm going to help him see the bigger picture, if that's possible. And I'm going to help his understand why the Department of Justice is picking off Trump's associates, one by one, which will eventually lead to the President.

And now. I repeat. Markk, please explain why Butina was arrested.

eta: Since I'm not sure you will, but in case you do, when you explain why Butina was arrested, and in order to save us some time, please list the major actors in the Butina situation so I know you understand this particular plate on the buffet table. We have a lot of ground to cover.

- Doc

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

My theory as to why Donald Trump and numerous people associated with him have been caught lying over and over about their contacts with Russia, including in situations that create criminal liability for them, is that their contacts with Russia weren't perfectly innocent.

I think this is better than the the theory that people are lying their asses off, including in situations where they are committing a criminal offense to do so, to conceal innocent behavior.

I wanted to go back to this comment by EA. It's incredibly simple, yet perfectly summarizes the quandary Trumpers find themselves in. For example, last month Roger Stone's fluffer, Andrew Miller, had his lawyer argued that Special Counsel Mueller's authority was unconstitutional. He even went as far as to lay out a plan on how the unconstitutionally appointed acting AG Matthew Whitaker could end Mueller's investigation.

!!! Holy crap the balls on that sack of perineum cheese.

Miller's attorney even claimed that Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh would agree with his (and other Trumpers' assertion) Mueller is acting as a "rogue prosecutor."

Why is this a problem? Well. “F”. I dunno. Wouldn't you want to help Mueller get to the bottom of things? I would. You know. Unless I was helping, I dunno, Roger Stone facilitate Assange and his horse crap on behalf of the Russians. Who. You know. Totally didn't care if Trump got elected.

- Doc

[_Markk]

Markk,

We can't discuss any aspect of the 'Butina affidavit' intelligently unless I have an understanding of your understanding as to why she was arrested. So. I ask again, please explain why Maria Butina was arrested.

- Doc

You can't tell me how the affidavit ties Trump to collusion with Putina? To me, at least so far it is like discussing Mormonism with a mopologist. You made a claim, then when it was questioned you provide a proof-text that when broken down, you refuse to discuss it or show how it is a proof text...so just to be clear you rote that a quote from the affidavit was a smoking gun...at some point maybe you will show me how.

Butina was arrested on charges of basically being a spy. Conspiracy and acting as a spy or foriegn agent. She has a long history of meeting with politicians and groups in both the Obama administration and in the beginnings of the Trump administration and the NRA was a main target at gaining political influence for Russian influence. She was one of many "spys" in

There, can you now show me how she and Trump colluded?

[_EAllusion]

Butina was a Russian agent who worked to infiltrate the NRA and helped funnel large sums of money to the NRA from a Russian actor with close associations to Russian intelligence, Putin, and organized crime. The NRA in turn spent a fortune on helping Donald Trump get elected. Saying that money came from another pot, which is something I anticipate, ignores the fact that funds from one source provides the spending cushion to use funds from another source.

The connection here between this and collusion with the campaign on matters related to espionage isn't there, but I can tell Markk is just throwing up whatever he can against the wall because he responded to the the Butina story by surmising she was trying to influence whomever would win the election, which, after all, was probably Clinton. You can't eyeroll hard enough at that. She was working to infiltrate the Republican party and we know enough at this point to know that she was somewhat successful in that mission.

[_Chap]

Why was this not good enough for Markk? It really does seem rather detailed ...

This is how it works with these guys. They can't engage in a good faith discussion, even though I just gave him an opportunity. Nope. He wants me to literally repeat whatever nugget he doesn't think exists.

All Markk had to do was type in the the MormonDiscussions.com search engine:

Butina

AND THIS WOULD'VE COME UP:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50576&p=1159913&hilit=butina#p1159913

After scrolling past our conversation from this thread, a mere four posts, Markk would've seen the first thread titled "Trump Scandal #3745". Had he had the intellectual curiosity of a muppet he would've clicked on it and this would've popped up:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50750&p=1161662&hilit=butina#p1161662

And then to his shame he would've seen this (note, I said seen, because like his dopey counterparts on this forum he doesn't actually read anything):

viewtopic.php?p=1161662#p1161662

And then after reading maybe, just maybe he's go back and read through all the Butin stuff that was posted, or perhaps he would've noticed the words 'money laundering' and typed that into the MormonDiscussions.com search engine which would've resulted in this:

search.php?keywords=money+laundering&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

And perhaps a quick scan down the list this might've caught his eye:

viewtopic.php?p=1160944#p1160944

He's read the comment, perhaps the thread, and then he would've come back to the comment and read some of the highly sourced articles making their argument.

And the poster in question, after spending a mere lunch break perusing this forum's treasure trove of information now would've felt a surge of heat around his neck, a physical manifestation of shame, that he'd shown is dumb ass once again as nothing more than a Trump-balls-gargling ____ who for a moment thought, really thought, that he was clever.

- Doc

[_Chap]

Just to get this succinct post first in the queue:

Butina was a Russian agent who worked to infiltrate the NRA and helped funnel large sums of money to the NRA from a Russian actor with close associations to Russian intelligence, Putin, and organized crime. The NRA in turn spent a fortune on helping Donald Trump get elected. Saying that money came from another pot, which is something I anticipate, ignores the fact that funds from one source provides the spending cushion to use funds from another source.

The connection here between this and collusion with the campaign on matters related to espionage isn't there, but I can tell Markk is just throwing up whatever he can against the wall because he responded to the the Butina story by surmising she was trying to influence whomever would win the election, which, after all, was probably Clinton. You can't eyeroll hard enough at that. She was working to infiltrate the Republican party and we know enough at this point to know that she was somewhat successful in that mission.

[_EAllusion]

Markk - Does it bother you even a little that Trump was working in the middle of a campaign to secure a large private business deal with a hostile foreign power while using his political power to push a much softer foreign policy stance towards that hostile foreign power and lying about his relationship with them to the public? Forget whatever "collusion" is in your mind. Does that bother you?

[_EAllusion]

Just to get this succinct post first in the queue:

I'll make it more direct. Butina helped set up a system to launder money from Russian organized crime with Putin's backing to the GOP's benefit in general and Trump specifically. At the same time, Trump has pushed hard for foreign policy decisions that provide significant benefit to Russia in general and the specific source of those funds in particular. Saying you can't prove there was a handshake quid pro quo deal kinda misses the point.

[_Xenophon]

I'll make it more direct. Butina helped set up a system to launder money from Russian organized crime with Putin's backing to the GOP's benefit in general and Trump specifically. At the same time, Trump has pushed hard for foreign policy decisions that provide significant benefit to Russia in general and the specific source of those funds in particular. Saying you can't prove there was a handshake quid pro quo deal kinda misses the point.

To your last line (emphasis mine). I'm finding that most that can't see, at a minimum, inappropriate behavior by Trump and Company with regards to Russia tend to imagine that there will be something akin to a tape of Trump saying to Putin "Hey buddy, lets collude". I see this repeated in Markk's request for a "single piece of evidence". I'm not quite sure how to break through to people like that who can't seem to connect the dots, even when they are numbered for them. They take each new indictment as if it is some fresh new day, wholly unconnected to all of the other indictments. Each new lie as if there haven't been an innumerable amount prior, often contradicting other lies that are still being peddled.

[Guest]

Markk,

We can't discuss any aspect of the 'Butina affidavit' intelligently unless I have an understanding of your understanding as to why she was arrested. So. I ask again, please explain why Maria Butina was arrested.

- Doc

You can't tell me how the affidavit ties Trump to collusion with Putina? To me, at least so far it is like discussing Mormonism with a mopologist. You made a claim, then when it was questioned you provide a proof-text that when broken down, you refuse to discuss it or show how it is a proof text...so just to be clear you rote that a quote from the affidavit was a smoking gun...at some point maybe you will show me how.

Butina was arrested on charges of basically being a spy. Conspiracy and acting as a spy or foriegn agent. She has a long history of meeting with politicians and groups in both the Obama administration and in the beginnings of the Trump administration and the NRA was a main target at gaining political influence for Russian influence. She was one of many "spys" in

There, can you now show me how she and Trump colluded?

I just want it noted that Markk can NOT explain why Butina was arrested, but he continues to misspell her name, which demonstrates an utter lack of understanding about her and her arrest. I really don't know how to have a discussion with someone who can't even get to the starting line of a factual discussion. He shows virtually no situational awareness, has demonstrated that he won't read anything that's served up to him, and he focuses on a flake of crescent dough on one pig-in-a-blanket, and then states triumphantly that the platter of pigs-in-a-blanket don't exist and the buffet table in front of him doesn't exist.

It's bizarre, frankly.

That said, because I can, I'll do my best to start building the picture for him because why not?

- Doc