Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

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_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Ajax is too stupid to understand that Venezuela isn't even a socialist country. But why let facts get in the way of a stupid meme?
_Markk
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Markk »

Kevin Graham wrote:Ajax is too stupid to understand that Venezuela isn't even a socialist country. But why let facts get in the way of a stupid meme?


I have to ask....

"I’m just going to lay my cards on the table: Venezuela is NOT a socialist state. It is a heavily state-controlled social democracy and quasi-dictatorship."

What does that even mean? It sounds like a form of socialism to me?

Who is the author of your article? On your link it reads he is a ..."23 year old liberal, likes to write about politics."

Your post about Ajax begs the question "How is Venezuela closer to the US" E.G. A capitalist state vs a socialist state?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Kevin Graham wrote:Ajax is too stupid to understand that Venezuela isn't even a socialist country. But why let facts get in the way of a stupid meme?

Venezuela is socialist. Your article defines socialist in terms of a level of Marxist central planning that not even the Soviet Union achieved in reality. It's just playing with terms in the way that is different than their ordinary meaning.

If you want to adopt the definition of socialism as a complete planned economy with total communal ownership, then there are no socialist countries and socialism is a dangerous idea that's never been tried on a meaningful scale. Also, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez isn't a socialist despite what she calls herself.

This article is a good example of the old trope that "real communism" has never been tried, so you can't say it failed. Funny how all the attempts at "real communism" end up creating the fake kind that communists need to disassociate themselves from.
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:What does that even mean? It sounds like a form of socialism to me?


He's saying that any mixed economy, no matter how far on the socialism scale, is technically capitalist and not really socialist. Venezuela is a quasi-dictatorship in its political organization.
_Markk
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Markk »

Markk wrote:What does that even mean? It sounds like a form of socialism to me?

EAllusion wrote:He's saying that any mixed economy, no matter how far on the socialism scale, is technically capitalist and not really socialist. Venezuela is a quasi-dictatorship in its political organization.


You mean not "Real Socialism" under a strict Soviet Model? Is it fair to say that if the Soviet Model is the standard for socialism, then The US is the standard for Capitalism?

How far up the scale is Venezuela on the scale?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Perhaps Venezuela would be more accurately described as National Socialist. Heh.

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Maksutov
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Maksutov »

Chap wrote:
EAllusion wrote:Using Venezuela as the only or inevitable example of socialism is as stupid as when liberals claim that Somalia is the best example of free market capitalism in action. The difference is the former is widespread in conservative discourse and the latter is at least an example of niche stupidity.


Yes. But this is yet another example of the tendency of certain kinds of political discourse to degenerate into memes, either rhetorical, or (as in the two posts preceding yours) graphical. Complex argumentation and the expression of anything less than certainty are seen as signs of weakness and a wish to deceive the honest and straight-thinking citizen.


Partisan trolling in social media is the modern cyber equivalent of guerilla warfare. Every instrument, every tool becomes a weapon. The builders vs the destroyers yet again. :sad:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EAllusion
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:
You mean not "Real Socialism" under a strict Soviet Model? Is it fair to say that if the Soviet Model is the standard for socialism, then The US is the standard for Capitalism?

How far up the scale is Venezuela on the scale?


His definition of socialism is so stringent that despite what he says alter in the article, not even the Soviet Union would really qualify. It's argument to myopic reading of a dictionary.

"Social democracy" is a type of socialism. Like "capitalism," "socialism" is a term that is nebulous and subject technical dispute, but his entire argument could be cleared up by reading a wikipedia entry.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Kevin Graham »

EAllusion wrote:Venezuela is socialist.


Yeah, in the same way the United States is Socialist.

EAllusion wrote:Your article defines socialist in terms of a level of Marxist central planning that not even the Soviet Union achieved in reality.


The article correctly describes Socialism, and the Soviet Union was Communist. You know this.

EAllusion wrote:It's just playing with terms in the way that is different than their ordinary meaning.


The only people playing with terms are the people calling Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez a Socialist and calling Venezuela Socialist.

EAllusion wrote:If you want to adopt the definition of socialism as a complete planned economy with total communal ownership, then there are no socialist countries and socialism is a dangerous idea that's never been tried on a meaningful scale. Also, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez isn't a socialist despite what she calls herself.


Well no kidding, I've been saying this for years now that there are no purely Socialist countries.

EAllusion wrote:This article is a good example of the old trope that "real communism" has never been tried, so you can't say it failed. Funny how all the attempts at "real communism" end up creating the fake kind that communists need to disassociate themselves from.


False equivalence. And I've never heard anyone say true communism never existed.
_Chap
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Re: Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez

Post by _Chap »

'Socialist' is one of those frequently used terms whose current content is so diverse that it is better not to be drawn into dispute about what it 'really' means.

What might be interesting would be to look at the core concrete socio-economic measures operated by the Venezuelan government, and then to see whether (for instance) Anastasia Ocasio-Cortez has advocated the application of any of those measures to the US, and whether any such measure thus applied is likely to do more harm on the the whole, or more good.

Then one might end up with more light than heat ...
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
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