Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

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_Symmachus
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Symmachus »

The KJV translators probably transliterated "Alpha and Omega" because the exact translation as "A and Z" just sounded childish. In fact "Alpha and Omega" probably sounded just that childish to Revelation's original readership. "Omega" is the name of the last letter in the Greek alphabet but it literally just means "big o". Whoever actually dreamed or hallucinated Revelation cannot have been a fluent speaker of Greek, because the Greek text is full of basic language mistakes, so one wonders what words in the original vision got translated as "Alpha and Omega".


Alpha and Omega (as A and Ω) occur in some of the earliest manuscripts containing Revelation and quickly became part of Christian epigraphy and iconography. Why do you think they would have been perceived it as childish then? Sound and letter symbolism was very common in the ancient world, and many premodern cultures believe that writing has a magical quality to it (fun fact: "glamour" is Scots for "grammar," because mastery of grammar was thought to imply mastery of language, spells, formula, etc.). Given you are reading the thoughts of a person you have never met and likely never will, writing kind of is something magical. But anyway the Ω would have been referred to not as Omega (big O) but merely as "oh" (similar to our pronunciation of "o" in reciting the alphabet but without the glide). O mega was the Byzantine name of the letter necessitated by the fact that the pronunciation Greek O ("little O") and Ω had merged by then.

I don't consider these to be damning anachronisms because the apologists are correct that translation is a difficult business in which one must negotiate not only linguistic but also cultural distance between source and target language. Sometimes, a translator chooses not to translate a concept but merely to import it (e.g. the Nephite money), and other times to use something culturally familiar to the target audience. One could claim that Alpha and Omega is that, since this divine title had been embedded in the Christian tradition since practically the beginning and thus would have had cultural valence and relatability for the Book of Mormon's first American audience. There is no way to conclusively refute that. The most you can say is that Joseph Smith is wildly, perhaps conveniently inconsistent in how he applies cultural valence in his supposed translation method.

In the philological domain, imported textual errors are a little bit more difficult to explain away, especially when Nephites are supposed to have had an earlier form of the text. Believers are forced to conclude that the same error that found its way into an Old World textual tradition when translated into Greek also just happened to arise in the Nephite tradition when not translated at all. An argument relying on cultural valence is less persuasive there.
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_Physics Guy
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Physics Guy »

Symmachus wrote:Alpha and Omega (as A and Ω) occur in some of the earliest manuscripts containing Revelation and quickly became part of Christian epigraphy and iconography.

That's a point. I guess nobody would have been in a hurry to write A's and Ω's on things if they seemed childish. In fact I suppose my perception of A and Z as childish must come from Sesame Street being a children's show. Before the alphabet was a thing to teach to children like that, maybe it was closer to being as arcane and impressive as fancy mathematical symbols are now.

But anyway the Ω would have been referred to not as Omega (big O) but merely as "oh" (similar to our pronunciation of "o" in reciting the alphabet but without the glide). O mega was the Byzantine name of the letter necessitated by the fact that the pronunciation Greek O ("little O") and Ω had merged by then.

Ha. I didn't know that.

I don't consider these to be damning anachronisms because the apologists are correct that translation is a difficult business in which one must negotiate not only linguistic but also cultural distance between source and target language. Sometimes, a translator chooses not to translate a concept but merely to import it (e.g. the Nephite money), and other times to use something culturally familiar to the target audience. ... There is no way to conclusively refute that.


Maybe, but ... one senine-worth of importation to this intolerable deal of quotation! As far as I'm concerned it's enough refutation to simply narrow one's eyes and say, "Really?"

Your old post about the voice crying in the wilderness was actually the thing that got me reading this board.
_Shulem
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Shulem »

Symmachus wrote:I don't consider these to be damning anachronisms because the apologists are correct that translation is a difficult business in which one must negotiate not only linguistic but also cultural distance between source and target language.


You're much too kind. I, however, would like to wrap my hands around the throats of Smith & Cowdery (figuratively speaking) and choke them to death. The Book of Mormon takes into account the Nephite money system, Nephite weights and measurements, Nephite animals, BUT when it comes to the First & Last, it settles for the Greek. That's a goof. That's a boner. That's a red flag. Busted!

My BS meter got pegged.
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Shulem »

Joseph Smith in his attempt to sound fanciful in translating says:

Omni 1:21 wrote:And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.


Space of 9 moons? Moons? Not days, weeks, months, or years, BUT moons.

Obviously the Book of Mormon makes an attempt to sound accurate and represent the language of the people at hand. So why didn't Mormon Jesus speak in Nephite terms instead of Greek? There is plenty of room in the Book of Mormon to add a couple more foreign sounding words to the huge list that already exists. But we see, the Greek was used even though Smith said there was no Greek on the plates. Therefore, Mormon Jesus had no business speaking Greek. Nephite words and usage would have been the only way to make the story consistent when Jesus declared himself to be the First & Last.

Smith screwed up.
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Shulem »

Physics Guy wrote:What makes it all even more convoluted is that the KJV "farthing" is a translation of the Greek, and the Greek word that is rendered as "farthing" is itself a transliteration, into Greek, of the Latin word "quadrans" (a small Roman coin).


You make a good point. I think Smith & Cowdery knew they couldn't use the biblical term "farthing" because it would look out of place and the Nephites wouldn't know what to make of a farthing. The Nephites had their own money system so it would be out of place for Jesus to talk money values from a foreign land. Therefore, the word senine was used.

But the Roman mile escaped Smith & Cowdery while writing the story. A blooper! Nephites didn't walk miles. They had their own measurement system. Mormon Jesus had to have known that but is quoted as saying "mile" to the Nephites. Joseph Smith screwed up.

Bottom line: Joseph Smith wrote a novel and there is no such thing as Mormon Jesus. I so testify.
_Mormonicious
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Mormonicious »

Shulem wrote:
Symmachus wrote:I don't consider these to be damning anachronisms because the apologists are correct that translation is a difficult business in which one must negotiate not only linguistic but also cultural distance between source and target language.


You're much too kind. I, however, would like to wrap my hands around the throats of Smith & Cowdery (figuratively speaking) and choke them to death. The Book of Mormon takes into account the Nephite money system, Nephite weights and measurements, Nephite animals, BUT when it comes to the First & Last, it settles for the Greek. That's a goof. That's a boner. That's a red flag. Busted!

My BS meter got pegged.


Love it when simple SCIENTIFIC truths are QUASHED by Stupid damned Mormonicious "feeling" of truth. No wonder the STUPID damned MOR(M)ONS are so easily Conned out of their Filthy Lucre
Revelation 2:17 . . give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. Thank Google GOD for her son eBay, you can now have life eternal with laser engraving. . oh, and a seer stone and save 10% of your life's earning as a bonus. See you in Mormon man god Heaven Bitches!!. Bring on the Virgins
_Shulem
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Shulem »

Symmachus wrote:The most you can say is that Joseph Smith is wildly, perhaps conveniently inconsistent in how he applies cultural valence in his supposed translation method.


Joseph Smith's translations were a complete mess on every front. Just look at the Explanations of the Facsimiles. Those things are beyond inconsistencies -- proven totally fraudulent. Smith takes Facsimile No. 3 and turns women into men while Book of Mormon KJV Jesus converts Nephite into Greek. What are the Nephites supposed to make of Greek letters and Roman measurements? Nephi was quoted earlier as saying that the Lord "speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding". It's not reasonable to think that Mormon Jesus would have called himself Alpha & Omega and tell the Nephites to walk a mile. It's not reasonable to think that a prophet, seer, revelator, and translator filled with the Holy Ghost is going to mistranslate what God said.
_Symmachus
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Symmachus »

Physics Guy wrote:
Maybe, but ... one senine-worth of importation to this intolerable deal of quotation! As far as I'm concerned it's enough refutation to simply narrow one's eyes and say, "Really?"


Ha! Well, on that level, I should be upfront that I never went even that deep before releasing myself from the obligation of believing the Church's story. I was unfortunately to quickly given to sarcasm as young child and especially as a teenager, and I remember getting the ire of a bishop when I said "I'm sure a lot of iliiterate farmers had angels help them find and dig up golden books in their backyard..." or something along those lines. That was pretty much it for me as far as literalism went. I still see it that way, but I also try to (over?)compensate sometimes by giving at least granting that some of their arguments can at least be palatable, if not plausible or probable.

But why not run with this stuff, too? I enjoy doing the alternative apologeticisms with Kish and Johannes and others here precisely because in doing that imaginative and creative enterprise one can see how little imagination and creativity the current crew of traditional apologists have.

Your old post about the voice crying in the wilderness was actually the thing that got me reading this board.


I am very flattered.

Shulem wrote:Joseph Smith in his attempt to sound fanciful in translating says:

Omni 1:21 wrote:And they gave an account of one Coriantumr, and the slain of his people. And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla; and he dwelt with them for the space of nine moons.


Space of 9 moons? Moons? Not days, weeks, months, or years, BUT moons.

Obviously the Book of Mormon makes an attempt to sound accurate and represent the language of the people at hand. So why didn't Mormon Jesus speak in Nephite terms instead of Greek? There is plenty of room in the Book of Mormon to add a couple more foreign sounding words to the huge list that already exists. But we see, the Greek was used even though Smith said there was no Greek on the plates. Therefore, Mormon Jesus had no business speaking Greek. Nephite words and usage would have been the only way to make the story consistent when Jesus declared himself to be the First & Last.

Smith screwed up.


So I would give "alpha and omega" a pass, Shulem, but nine moons is so obviously a country hick on the frontier trying to Indianize his story.
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

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_jfro18
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _jfro18 »

To me the Alpha and Omega stuff is entertaining because you can see some areas where Joseph Smith didn't realize he was making a blooper, and that also comes to bite him due to needing such a literal viewpoint of everything.

He didn't know Elias and Elijah were the same person.

He didn't know that Deutero-Isaiah was written after Lehi left with the plates.

He screwed up when naming Jesus too early and you can see that he realized it immediately after.

The pattern is so unmistakable and never really ends -- the problem is that until you're willing to open up to the possibility that Joseph made it all up... you just ignore what you don't like and redefine what you need to in order to pretend it's not a problem.
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Re: Alpha & Omega: A Book of Mormon anachronistic blooper

Post by _Shulem »

jfro18 wrote:The pattern is so unmistakable and never really ends


Joseph Smith was such a screw up. He put a white man's head atop the body of a black man. Of course he didn't know that the headless Anubis on his damaged papyrus required a black jackal head so he added one to his own liking. Talk about taking liberties . . . .

Image

Behold ye Nephites, I am Alpha & Omega -- my body may be black but my face is surely white. Will ye walk with me a mile? Next stop, Rome.
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