conversation with ajax18

[_Jersey Girl]

The details of a persons spiritual perceptions are dependent on his perspective in both time and location but the basic truths are still the same even though they cannot be proven or accessed through scientific means.

Back on the horse here...when you are talking about basic truths, are you thinking in terms of sensing the existence of a higher power, a being or force greater than ourselves?

I don't see incomplete truths of other faiths or even my own as necessarilly useless.

I think much the same way. I know I said this on this board years ago, but the most candid and blatantly honest statement I ever heard come from the pulpit was made by my former Southern Baptist Preacher who stated to the effect:

Who knows? One day we may get to Heaven and the Lord will say, "You guys got it all wrong".

And I believe he meant that sincerely. This is where I tend lean a bit agnostic in my own thinking.

[Guest]

Like it or not, science has a far, far better and more consistent track record of discovering and applying useful truths than religion. Given the innumerable, mutually contradictory belief systems arrived at through the application of religious faith, it is impossible (for me, at least) to avoid concluding that there is no approach to discerning truth that is more unreliable than that.

Thanks for saving me having to say that. Scientific knowledge is by nature cumulative. The same is not true of religion.

Exactly! Science has from time to time made mistakes, and will undoubtedly make more mistakes in the future, but because science (when practiced correctly) is dedicated to frequently testing and retesting its results as often as new and relevant evidence becomes available, it is inherently self-correcting. Religion strongly tends not to be. When new evidence calls into question what they already claim to believe, they almost invariably double down on defending what they already believe, no matter how compelling the contrary evidence.

Scientists are not entirely immune to this tendency, of course (they are also human), but they still acknowledge the validity of the principle of honestly reevaluating their convictions and altering them as necessary to accommodate the new evidence, however imperfectly they may occasionally stick to that Ideal.

[_Gunnar]

I think much the same way. I know I said this on this board years ago, but the most candid and blatantly honest statement I ever heard come from the pulpit was made by my former Southern Baptist Preacher who stated to the effect:

Who knows? One day we may get to Heaven and the Lord will say, "You guys got it all wrong".

And I believe he meant that sincerely. This is where I tend lean a bit agnostic in my own thinking.

I admire the honesty of that minister, as do you. I would that all practitioners of religion were that honest.

Consider also this, please:

On second thought, I may not be fair to entirely dismiss the role of faith and emotion. In binary arithmetic, "10" is more that "1" by itself, even though "0" by itself equals nothing. Similarly, we can give evidence and reason a value of "one" and faith and emotion a value of "zero". If what we believe is supported by both the "one" of evidence and reason and the "zero" of faith and emotion, perhaps it would be fair to say that we have more than if we had evidence and reason alone. But if we do have evidence and reason alone, we still have something; while if we have faith and emotion alone, we really have nothing, no matter how many "zeroes" we have.

[_Jersey Girl]

I think much the same way. I know I said this on this board years ago, but the most candid and blatantly honest statement I ever heard come from the pulpit was made by my former Southern Baptist Preacher who stated to the effect:

Who knows? One day we may get to Heaven and the Lord will say, "You guys got it all wrong".

And I believe he meant that sincerely. This is where I tend lean a bit agnostic in my own thinking.

I admire the honesty of that minister, as do you. I would that all practitioners of religion were that honest.

What he said was entirely Biblical.

Consider also this, please:

On second thought, I may not be fair to entirely dismiss the role of faith and emotion. In binary arithmetic, "10" is more that "1" by itself, even though "0" by itself equals nothing. Similarly, we can give evidence and reason a value of "one" and faith and emotion a value of "zero". If what we believe is supported by both the "one" of evidence and reason and the "zero" of faith and emotion, perhaps it would be fair to say that we have more than if we had evidence and reason alone. But if we do have evidence and reason alone, we still have something; while if we have faith and emotion alone, we really have nothing, no matter how many "zeroes" we have.

I think that the two are compatible features of a person's life. They certainly are in my own life.

[_ajax18]

1. What simple spiritual knowledge were you thinking about here?

1. Eternal truths and principles. The Bhuddist principle of kharma may not be provable in science. And yet I believe in this principle as much as Newton's 2nd law of motion. I know it's true and have received this knowledge spiritually without having to find it through scientific testing.


2. When you say "can take you a long ways ahead of what hard proven science can provide" what does that look t like in your life and can you provide at least a general example?[/quote]


Spiritual knowledge effects the way we behave now. Knowing that this life is not the end can motivate one to live in a way that will improve their state in the next life. To live with no spiritual faith or knowledge and spend this short life acting accordingly is truly a setback and a waste of time in an individuals journey to lasting happiness.

It can be very difficult to overcome feelings of bereavement, being cheated, or just depression at seeing no point in our current suffering and existence. Scientific knowledge never can provide you with an absolute truth. It tells you what we can measure to be true until proven otherwise. Spiritual knowledge on the other hand can help you find these absolute truths now when you need that information just find the will to push through another day.

One of my favorite quotes from Lincoln was where I'm paraphrasing, "... fighting for what is right, inasmuch as God reveals to us what is right."

[_Jersey Girl]

I didn't forget about this thread, ajax. Stuff going on over here. Something to know is that if there is a thread or a message that I think is important to me to address, I'll runaround and blow off steam (like making hit and run posts) before I settle down to take time with a reply. Probably sounds crazy but I need to clear my mind somehow. Like I said, things going on. A person I know is having surgery tomorrow, a first step in a cancer journey. This weighs heavy on my mind right now.

1. What simple spiritual knowledge were you thinking about here?

1. Eternal truths and principles. The Bhuddist principle of kharma may not be provable in science. And yet I believe in this principle as much as Newton's 2nd law of motion. I know it's true and have received this knowledge spiritually without having to find it through scientific testing.

I think we could think about that in a number of ways. Does Kharma get people eventually because it's a spiritual principle (?) or is it because the people who screw up eventually get caught or get their comeuppance because the odds are simply in favor of it?

That said, I sort of believe in Kharma but only to the extent that I just expressed it above there. Then again...hmmm...I could think about that as God intentionally allowing a person to trip up (free agency as you would call it) as a pathway of calling one to repentance. Bringing someone to their knees as I think of it.

2. When you say "can take you a long ways ahead of what hard proven science can provide" what does that look t like in your life and can you provide at least a general example?

Spiritual knowledge effects the way we behave now. Knowing that this life is not the end can motivate one to live in a way that will improve their state in the next life. To live with no spiritual faith or knowledge and spend this short life acting accordingly is truly a setback and a waste of time in an individuals journey to lasting happiness.

You know, I can't say that I know for a fact that this life isn't the end. I think more of it in terms of having a hope of heaven. I don't like the descriptions of heaven in the Bible very much. Anyway, I sort of feel like no matter what, it's better for me to help folks around me (there's my personality again) than it is to go my own way and ignore the need that I see in others because whether there is heaven or not, it makes this world and life in it a better experience for all of us when we reach out to the guy next to us, help to heal folks when we can, get them back on their feet in a situation, help folks meet their potential and let them help us meet ours and in turn, we all benefit. (A shrink would have a field day with how many times I use the word "help". I'm aware of it but I can't really stop it.) I sort of see all of us walking through life and when one is stumbling and falling, the other guy is yanking him back up and when I fall, someone yanks me up. And we keep walking forward to what destination, I don't know. (I know. I'm certifiable.)

It can be very difficult to overcome feelings of bereavement, being cheated, or just depression at seeing no point in our current suffering and existence. Scientific knowledge never can provide you with an absolute truth. It tells you what we can measure to be true until proven otherwise. Spiritual knowledge on the other hand can help you find these absolute truths now when you need that information just find the will to push through another day.

One of my favorite quotes from Lincoln was where I'm paraphrasing, "... fighting for what is right, inasmuch as God reveals to us what is right."

Okay so let's consider feelings of bereavement, being cheated and depressed. Wow, you could take all three of those things and relate it to that "worst thing that ever happened" scenario that I used in my earlier posts.

So...when I look at those things, I (am certifiable) have learned in my life to see those things as an opportunity that I had to develop tools. Tools that I can use for new purposes when they lend themselves to a situation.

So that I can HELP people. Maybe I should try helping myself, yeah?

Or at least that is how I have learned to view those challenges I have faced in my life. I've learned to use them. To (I hope) the benefit of others when the opportunity presents itself. And I am just as sure that when I help others, it helps to heal a part of me, too.

What were you saying again?

It can be very difficult to overcome feelings of bereavement, being cheated, or just depression at seeing no point in our current suffering and existence. Scientific knowledge never can provide you with an absolute truth. It tells you what we can measure to be true until proven otherwise. Spiritual knowledge on the other hand can help you find these absolute truths now when you need that information just find the will to push through another day.

I'm trying to get into your head and translate through my own filter here. I think that my strongest motivators are my relationships with others. Others in real life, random others I meet in the moment, even others on a board like this. I believe that God wants all of us to extend ourselves to others. (Get the shrink!) I think when we do that, it benefits all of humanity. You can call that my philosophy for living, call it my personality, my temperament, but I think we all do have a purpose and something to contribute to this world. I feel like I learn something from every person I encounter, even those random folks in the moment.

I wanted to say something here. I'm very aware of how oriented I am to helping people and how strong an emphasis I place on that. I do not live in a state of self denial. It took me years to realize that filling one's own well is important and rewarding.

I think there is something transcendent about having a spiritual belief, that drives us forward. So yes, I think if you want to say that science has it's limits, I would agree with that. I think that humans have a need to engage relationships. Science would attribute that to survival instinct, I don't see why it can't be both survival instinct and a creator who wants us to survive and find fulfillment in the creation so long as we are a part of it.

When people say that humans are wired to believe in a god, I think--"Of course we are". Because in my believing mind it makes perfect sense that a creator (if one exists) would create beings who have method by which to access him/it even if that access is secured by intuitive means.

I'm making a mess of this, I know.

But, even if there is no higher being, I think I can say that I really am a part of something bigger than myself. Call me a cog in the wheel of humanity if you like, I still think that holds meaning. I'm taking my turn the best way I know how.

One of my favorite quotes from Lincoln was where I'm paraphrasing, "... fighting for what is right, inasmuch as God reveals to us what is right."

I think I understand that. I think I could say, too, fighting for what is right, inasmuch we understand what right at any given time.

One of my favorite quotes is...

Do something with your life that will outlast it.~ anonymous.

I had that as one of my sig lines here for a while. I think that says quite a lot about how I view the world and my place in it.

What are your favorite Bible verses and do you have what we call a "life verse"? Something that resonates you that you regularly call to mind?

And how do you fill your own well, ajax?

[_Jersey Girl]

I just want to expand on this since I recall what you said in the beginning about how you didn't expect to be happy in this life. I wanted to show you how I think differently about it. Hard to do in posts on a board, but here goes.

So...when I look at those things, I (am certifiable) have learned in my life to see those things as an opportunity that I had to develop tools. Tools that I can use for new purposes when they lend themselves to a situation.

When I had challenges in my life, happiness was nowhere in the picture. At all. I'm talking about unhappy situations some of which were ongoing for years of my life. Feelings of being abandoned, grief, loss, fear, depression, betrayal, emotional suffering. Like...definitely... not happy.

I'm going to try to take a little tool inventory on the screen. These are some of my tools.

1. I understand the perspectives of children.
2. I'm can advocate for people.
3. I'm not afraid of anyone's grief or suffering.
4. I'm not afraid to be with the very sick or dying.
5. I'm not afraid to assist and support those who have mental illness.
6. I can find ways to connect with people in despair.
7. I think that people have potential and value. I think they don't always know it or believe it about themselves.


So, all of those things came from the total crap situations and crises of my life. Some of them dating back as far as I can remember in childhood. I am well practiced. I think something positive can come from unhappy times.

Do you have unhappy times from which you managed to draw something positive and was your God belief or religion a part of raising you up again?

You don't have to name any. I'm just asking that simple question.

[_ajax18]

Science would attribute that to survival instinct, I don't see why it can't be both survival instinct and a creator who wants us to survive and find fulfillment in the creation so long as we are a part of it.

I don't see why it can't be both either. I think evolution happened and I also believe God had His hand in our creation.

And how do you fill your own well, ajax?

Matthew 6:20

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

I've been happiest during my life when I believe this scripture means what it says. I've allowed people to convince me it wasn't true in times past. I believe it now again and I'm much more at peace.

Do you have unhappy times from which you managed to draw something positive and was your God belief or religion a part of raising you up again?

Absolutely. I now believe that even the worst experiences in life can be for our eternal profit, learning, and experience. I've been suicidal before because I realized that I probably would never be fully healthy again. But now I hold firm in the belief that happiness in this life is not necessarily the ultimate object of our existence. Happiness in eternity is our purpose and suicide would have greatly delayed my quest for eternal happiness. I thought it would speed my path toward happiness and let me escape sickness and affliction. The truth is the opposite.

[_Jersey Girl]

Headed for a long day here. I will reply to your above later this evening.

I have two verses that I consider life verses.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:18

But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Isaiah 40:31